Slitherine

Bee1976 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 17, 2022 3:05 pm

o_t_d_x wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:15 pm Sometimes i have to attack them 4,5 times because of that. They flee like in pcone, away from me, but with much more movement.

No offense intend.

But uhm that sounds terribly wrong. Maybe you are playing with real crazy challenges and neg trait settings or the problem lies way deeper than the retreat mechanic. Again, no offense intend, really not. But even in SCW, with inferior equipment with manstein on, this should never happen that you have to attack a unit that often to kill it and force it 4-5 times to retreat.
At least this never happend to me.

Well the retreat mechanic is not important in 9 of 10 cases. In the last case of those 10 you can play nice around a retreat route, like forcing enemies in a wanted direction for a good frontline positioning, or a mistake occured.

The AI likes to hunt down expensive (prestigewise) exposed and unsupported units, so if one of your units gets "hammered" im pretty sure you overextended your army. Like greenknight said.
You can turn this AI beavior into an advantage. Even with weak units, if you form a good positioned and supported defense line, the AI wont attack and instead block and wait in most missions. so your airforce can finish them of one after another.
And nothing is more fun than an exposed "neubaufahrzeug" with a camoflaged fat 15cm or emil behind it. AI will pay the price xD

Good positioning and support (or a lot of luck) is mandatory on higher difficulties.

"No offense intend." None taken.

Sometimes you dont have many divisions in close proximity, sometimes its just one unit ag. another. Somtetimes its an limited air drop op, with 2 parachute units only. (lillehammer air field f. ex.) Or when i have a beginner unit f. ex. and i dont want the enemy to surrender, then its a good way to get experience. And then they run away like crazy and heal forever. (i dont like the design desicion of the old gc team, to give ai unlimited prestige btw., in my pc1 mod i gave the ai loootz of prestige, but not unlimited, good players should be able to bleed the ai dry. Of course that alone would lead to much more developing time (playtesting), so i see why they didnt do it.)
Normally you encircle and it cant flee, of course. Normally you cover your advancing tanks with pak and your infantry with arty. And of course you should never overextend your lines, because it makes it easy to breakthrough for the ai.

But when i let a secure hex open for the tank division, directly behind them, between my other troops, why does it flee IN the zone of control of the enemy instead of just moving back, away from the danger. And no, nothing was overextended. I was protected by two rivers and the tank division didnt take much damage. It was surpressed and i knew that they will flee. Thats why i opened a good retreat position for them in advance. In reality this would be a fall back position AND every unit would fall back there not in direction to the enemy thats shooting at them.

And its a big difference, if an army leads a very sucessful lightning warfare campaign and only ONE tank spearhead unit falls back into the front line. Or a whole army group has to retreat like later, in a war, thats already unwinnable. (and most of the soliers were green because the good ones have been already killed mostly...)

This time i played with multiple heroes, was really shocked, how much easier the game is now. My prestige is now four times higher. I dont even have to look if i use elite or normal repl.. It just doesnt matter. Btw.: Is it normal to get so often the same heroes, or do i have bad luck ? 4 overrun heroes f. ex. - i never had even one till now. So 3 of my infantry and my wittmann scout and all of my tanks of course, can overrun now. Combined with a flak that kills instead of surpession (hero), shoots 4 tiles range and more shot hero (5 of them in my core and i havent finished france) and a 21 arty that has soft support, more shots, dual fire, the time limit is my only enemy. And the retreat mechanics of course. With multiple heroes manstein, generalissimus seems to be necessary in the old gc.

o_t_d_x wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:55 pm

But when i let a secure hex open for the tank division, directly behind them, between my other troops, why does it flee IN the zone of control of the enemy instead of just moving back, away from the danger. And no, nothing was overextended. I was protected by two rivers and the tank division didnt take much damage. It was surpressed and i knew that they will flee. Thats why i opened a good retreat position for them in advance. In reality this would be a fall back position AND every unit would fall back there not in direction to the enemy thats shooting at them.

And its a big difference, if an army leads a very sucessful lightning warfare campaign and only ONE tank unit retreats or a whole army group has to retreat like later in the war. I

I think you're sort of mislaying/misinterpreting the mechanics of actual combat onto the mechanics of a turn-based simulation.

When you say you ended your turn with an unsupported tank unit so suppressed that any further combat would cause it to retreat, what that sounds like irl is not a combat-ready formation, all packed up and ready for an orderly withdrawal, but a formation so disorganized that action against it will cause it to rout.

To elaborate, I see suppression as an imperfect mechanic to simulate the the realities of constant enemy contact in a turn-based environment.
Say irl I was in a trench and the enemy across from me was also in a trench. I'm not taking casualties right now, because I'm dug into my trench, but say an attack penetrates the trenches of the company next to me. If I get up out of the trench to retreat, I am suddenly exposed to all the fire from the opposite trench. They don't have to "spend their move" to advance and attack me, the attack just happens naturally

So, despite my actual "health" being at full, I am "suppressed" in a way that restricts my movement and would undermine my combat strength if I had to do *anything* but just sit there.

Sequester Grundleplith, MD wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:29 pm

o_t_d_x wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 12:55 pm

But when i let a secure hex open for the tank division, directly behind them, between my other troops, why does it flee IN the zone of control of the enemy instead of just moving back, away from the danger. And no, nothing was overextended. I was protected by two rivers and the tank division didnt take much damage. It was surpressed and i knew that they will flee. Thats why i opened a good retreat position for them in advance. In reality this would be a fall back position AND every unit would fall back there not in direction to the enemy thats shooting at them.

And its a big difference, if an army leads a very sucessful lightning warfare campaign and only ONE tank unit retreats or a whole army group has to retreat like later in the war. I

I think you're sort of mislaying/misinterpreting the mechanics of actual combat onto the mechanics of a turn-based simulation.

When you say you ended your turn with an unsupported tank unit so suppressed that any further combat would cause it to retreat, what that sounds like irl is not a combat-ready formation, all packed up and ready for an orderly withdrawal, but a formation so disorganized that action against it will cause it to rout.

As i mentioned before, panic is no excuse for total disorientation and stupidity. And with veteran troops this counts even more.

o_t_d_x wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:45 pm

As i mentioned before, panic is no excuse for total disorientation and stupidity. And with veteran troops this counts even more.

I guess we'll just disagree, because I think panic is often the proximate cause for disorientation and stupidity in decision-making

No problem if we dont agree, the problem doesnt happen too often. When its annoying i reload. I think your arguments are right with green troops. Mine are right with veterans.

Btw.: In reality the tank commander would have briefed his soldiers about the easy to reach fall back spot before they start the operation. So they have only to move where they know its safe. Not much to decide: safe direction or idiot direction. Even paniced and surpressed, veterans will act right. And by the way they dont panic as easily as rooks.

Best solution would be:

Under options: acivate old pc1 retr. mechanics or pc2 mechanics. Everybody is happy.

nexusno2000 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 5:48 pm If your units retreat into unfavorable terrain it's because you're overextending and not supporting them properly.

Instead of focusing on (well known by now) game mechanics, focus on how to avoid setting yourself up for unfavorable retreats.

Problem solved.

That's not true. The rules which resulted in OP are still not explained.

1. Retreat directly away from attacker. - could have, chose not to

2. Check for impassable terrain. - not applicable here

3. Avoid ending IN ZOC of enemy unit. - in fact the units moves into ZOC despite plenty of options not to!

4. Find an empty hex to go to. - plenty to the rear that it does not take advantage of (and no enemy units behind my lines creating ZOC to block such movement)

5. Use the least possible MP to retreat. - does the total opposite, loses all its movement points on a river hex


As far as the conversation on realism, sure retreat can be hectic, but how realistic is it to avoid defending critical cities intersected by rivers just so your unit doesn't do a side step losing all its movement points and gets set up for surrender? (Maybe everyone's hot from the battle? They want to cool off in the river before capitulating?) My answer: it's more arbitrary than realistic - players shouldn't be forced to pull back from critical cities which sit on rivers because of unthoughtful retreat rules (apparently the developers can't even explain them for themselves).

I would try to mod these rules, but alas we have no resources on how to do this.

o_t_d_x wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 1:54 pm

Btw.: In reality the tank commander would have briefed his soldiers about the easy to reach fall back spot before they start the operation. So they have only to move where they know its safe. Not much to decide: safe direction or idiot direction. Even paniced and surpressed, veterans will act right. And by the way they dont panic as easily as rooks.

What if their final drives are busted? What if they are stuck in a shell crater? What if their treads were blown off and they don't have enough replacements? In real life, they are still alive, with non-destroyed tanks, waiting to be serviced by the support elements. This is part of what suppression simulates.

In the game, these issues are treated (suppression goes away) between the end of the enemy's turn and the beginning of your next turn.
If the enemy attacks your unit before the suppression is relieved, what happens? In real life, they have to bail out and hastily retreat on foot or on other vehicles, etc. In the game, they are unable to respond to the attack, and the retreat mechanism is engaged if they are fully suppressed.

ChristianC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:03 pm
1. Retreat directly away from attacker. - could have, chose not to

This rule applies only if the hex directly away from attacker is not in an ennemy ZoC

ChristianC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:03 pm
3. Avoid ending IN ZOC of enemy unit. - in fact the units moves into ZOC despite plenty of options not to!

Absolutly impossible. This is rule n°1 of retreating: choose a hex which is not in an ennemy ZoC is possible.
If you think that you experienced that, please show us.
But be careful, ZoC can be tricky: some units don't have ZoC. Some terrain don't have ZoC (for example, a thick forest won't be in the ZoC of an adjacent tank)

ChristianC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:03 pm
4. Find an empty hex to go to. - plenty to the rear that it does not take advantage of (and no enemy units behind my lines creating ZOC to block such movement)

Determining which hex is the best hex to retreat in is impossible to put in equations so it would work 100% time.
Sometimes I would prefer to retreat in an enemy ZoC (because I will have an AT support there for example) rather than in a free of ZoC hex (where I will be unsupported).
Sometimes I would prefer that my infantry retreat in a confined terrain (to be safe from tank overrun for example), sometimes I would prefer that my infantry retreat in an opened hex (where I have arty support for example).

Sometimes I would prefer that my unit retreat far behind my lines (so it is absolutly safe from further attacks), sometimes I would prefer it retreats only 1 hex (because it's a Tiger II, so its high def value protects it from further attacks, and I don't want it to lose all his MP because I want it to attack next turn)

Etc...
Best retreat hex heavily depends on global situation, on your strategy. It is therefore subjective: in the same situation, 2 different player would choose 2 different hexes !

Don't forget it's a game, so everything needs to be put in equations which have to deal with 100% of the situations !

ChristianC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:03 pm
5. Use the least possible MP to retreat. - does the total opposite, loses all its movement points on a river hex

Initially I also thought that this was part of the retreat rules. But then I ran some tests, and I'm pretty sure that movement points cost isn't used to choose the retreat hex (as long as the unit has enough MP).

Trepko wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:21 pm

ChristianC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:03 pm
1. Retreat directly away from attacker. - could have, chose not to

This rule applies only if the hex directly away from attacker is not in an ennemy ZoC

ChristianC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:03 pm
3. Avoid ending IN ZOC of enemy unit. - in fact the units moves into ZOC despite plenty of options not to!

Absolutly impossible. This is rule n°1 of retreating: choose a hex which is not in an ennemy ZoC is possible.
If you think that you experienced that, please show us.
But be careful, ZoC can be tricky: some units don't have ZoC. Some terrain don't have ZoC (for example, a thick forest won't be in the ZoC of an adjacent tank)

ChristianC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:03 pm
4. Find an empty hex to go to. - plenty to the rear that it does not take advantage of (and no enemy units behind my lines creating ZOC to block such movement)

Determining which hex is the best hex to retreat in is impossible to put in equations so it would work 100% time.
Sometimes I would prefer to retreat in an enemy ZoC (because I will have an AT support there for example) rather than in a free of ZoC hex (where I will be unsupported).
Sometimes I would prefer that my infantry retreat in a confined terrain (to be safe from tank overrun for example), sometimes I would prefer that my infantry retreat in an opened hex (where I have arty support for example).

Sometimes I would prefer that my unit retreat far behind my lines (so it is absolutly safe from further attacks), sometimes I would prefer it retreats only 1 hex (because it's a Tiger II, so its high def value protects it from further attacks, and I don't want it to lose all his MP because I want it to attack next turn)

Etc...
Best retreat hex heavily depends on global situation, on your strategy. It is therefore subjective: in the same situation, 2 different player would choose 2 different hexes !

Don't forget it's a game, so everything needs to be put in equations which have to deal with 100% of the situations !

ChristianC wrote: ↑Fri Jun 24, 2022 4:03 pm
5. Use the least possible MP to retreat. - does the total opposite, loses all its movement points on a river hex

Initially I also thought that this was part of the retreat rules. But then I ran some tests, and I'm pretty sure that movement points cost isn't used to choose the retreat hex (as long as the unit has enough MP).

Explain this please: https://youtu.be/SzDqsEqekTc

ChristianC wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:13 am

Explain this please: https://youtu.be/SzDqsEqekTc

When truck-mounted or towed units (maybe half track infantry too, but I'd have to double check) retreat, they only retreat up to their maximum on-foot/dismounted range. Since there are units two deep behind them, the only place they can walk is into the river tiles (you can see that when you move their range around in that video)

Sequester Grundleplith, MD wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:40 am

ChristianC wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:13 am

Explain this please: https://youtu.be/SzDqsEqekTc

When truck-mounted or towed units (maybe half track infantry too, but I'd have to double check) retreat, they only retreat up to their maximum on-foot/dismounted range. Since there are units two deep behind them, the only place they can walk is into the river tiles (you can see that when you move their range around in that video)

I agree with this principle of the game. You will be able to further distance your retreated unit on the river with your means of transport when it is your turn if the unit survives...

PS: illustrative videos are always very interesting

Sequester Grundleplith, MD wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:40 am

ChristianC wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:13 am

Explain this please: https://youtu.be/SzDqsEqekTc

When truck-mounted or towed units (maybe half track infantry too, but I'd have to double check) retreat, they only retreat up to their maximum on-foot/dismounted range. Since there are units two deep behind them, the only place they can walk is into the river tiles (you can see that when you move their range around in that video)

You're correct: organic transport can't be used to retreat.
An exception though: if the unit is already in its "transport" mode while retreating, it can use the full extent of its transport MP.
To sum up: when a unit retreats, it can't mount (or unmount !) before retreating. It has to retreat "as it is".

Thanks for the explanation. Now I reiterate, this should be patched. It's senseless as far as I can tell. Why should they not be able to take advantage of their transport to retreat, and instead flop over sideways into a river or outright surrender?

When playing a defensive scenario, this prevents giving your troops adequate support when you need to defend a city intersected by a river hex. You can abandon the city, but should you have to? It swaps realism for rules which seem completely arbitrary. And if your playing an opponent who knows about this and can set up a half-decent attack, there is little chance your unit will survive after being suppressed with no movement on a river hex.

I suggest this - After moving, you only have whatever remains of your organic transport movement points to fall back on in case you are forced into retreat on your opponent's turn. If your unit has been sitting for a turn, they get to use all their organic movement points, or at least as far as they can disembark to.

ChristianC wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:44 am Thanks for the explanation. Now I reiterate, this should be patched. It's senseless as far as I can tell. Why should they not be able to take advantage of their transport to retreat, and instead flop over sideways into a river or outright surrender?

Equipment is often abandoned in haste during a retreat after fighting.

There are two types of retreat:
- the quiet retreat during player’s turn to redeploy units
- the precipitous retreat that the player undergoes during the enemy turn after violent fighting

ChristianC wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:44 am
When playing a defensive scenario, this prevents giving your troops adequate support when you need to defend a city intersected by a river hex. You can abandon the city, but should you have to? It swaps realism for rules which seem completely arbitrary. And if your playing an opponent who knows about this and can set up a half-decent attack, there is little chance your unit will survive after being suppressed with no movement on a river hex.

To ignore the issue of retreat for a moment, I would just add that when defending a city-river tile, especially the one from your video, putting your frontline in it is usually a bad idea.
River tiles, including city tiles with rivers, put a -4 malus to attack and defense on the unit that is occupying them.
They often also constrain your support options-- in your video there are three tiles across the river that can directly attack into the city (and you have a frontline of 1 unit, so the AI will use all three attacks on that unit, when it often otherwise will fail to concentrate fire), while there is only one tile behind the city for support.

In that situation I would either establish my frontline behind the city, letting the opfor take it and put itself in that vulnerable position, or set up my frontline across the river

Sequester Grundleplith, MD wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:51 am

ChristianC wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:44 am
When playing a defensive scenario, this prevents giving your troops adequate support when you need to defend a city intersected by a river hex. You can abandon the city, but should you have to? It swaps realism for rules which seem completely arbitrary. And if your playing an opponent who knows about this and can set up a half-decent attack, there is little chance your unit will survive after being suppressed with no movement on a river hex.

To ignore the issue of retreat for a moment, I would just add that when defending a city-river tile, especially the one from your video, putting your frontline in it is usually a bad idea.
River tiles, including city tiles with rivers, put a -4 malus to attack and defense on the unit that is occupying them.
They often also constrain your support options-- in your video there are three tiles across the river that can directly attack into the city (and you have a frontline of 1 unit, so the AI will use all three attacks on that unit, when it often otherwise will fail to concentrate fire), while there is only one tile behind the city for support.

In that situation I would either establish my frontline behind the city, letting the opfor take it and put itself in that vulnerable position, or set up my frontline across the river

City-river tiles don't have the -4 malus. They're not considered as "vulnerable tile", and you can see that because there is not the "vulnerable icon" when selecting the tile.

ChristianC wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:44 am Thanks for the explanation. Now I reiterate, this should be patched. It's senseless as far as I can tell. Why should they not be able to take advantage of their transport to retreat, and instead flop over sideways into a river or outright surrender?

When playing a defensive scenario, this prevents giving your troops adequate support when you need to defend a city intersected by a river hex. You can abandon the city, but should you have to? It swaps realism for rules which seem completely arbitrary. And if your playing an opponent who knows about this and can set up a half-decent attack, there is little chance your unit will survive after being suppressed with no movement on a river hex.

I suggest this - After moving, you only have whatever remains of your organic transport movement points to fall back on in case you are forced into retreat on your opponent's turn. If your unit has been sitting for a turn, they get to use all their organic movement points, or at least as far as they can disembark to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying retreat mechanics are good or bad. I'm just trying to explain that there is no randomness in them, and that there is no "conspiracy" from the game designers to make Player's retreats always bad and AI's retreats always good.
Retreat follows strict rules, it can be predicted and it is the same for everyone.

Trepko wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:26 pm Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying retreat mechanics are good or bad. I'm just trying to explain that there is no randomness in them, and that there is no "conspiracy" from the game designers to make Player's retreats always bad and AI's retreats always good.
Retreat follows strict rules, it can be predicted and it is the same for everyone.

Yes I understand. To be clear I should not have used the word 'arbitrary,' I mean the retreat system lacks sensible reasoning. I realize it's following a set of rules nonetheless.

Trepko wrote: ↑Mon Jun 27, 2022 5:21 pm

City-river tiles don't have the -4 malus. They're not considered as "vulnerable tile", and you can see that because there is not the "vulnerable icon" when selecting the tile.

Oh yeah, you're right, thanks for clearing that up for me! Good to know I still have room to learn and improve on this game

I have to bring this topic back.
Just to screenshots:
1) Infantry is moving towards my recon. The recon needs to retreat.
2) The recon got 4 choices and it is doing the worst possible thing. It going straight to the enemy lines and even going up on a hill. It could go back to an open tile, any other option would be better and more comprehensible.
Maybe it is working like intended, what I dont undestand in this case, but coming back to the title, if definatley could need some patching.

Too bad, I cant add some jpegs...