Slitherine

Myrddraal wrote:You're quite right dragoon, we could have needed that tactic with slightly different game design decisions, but I'll be honest it's a tactic that never occurred to me until I saw your screenshot.

As you say, we gave you the tools...

I don't how hard it is to write an AI. After playing for almost 30 years computer games I guess it is the most toughest part.

The AI has already everything it need to get rid of the mines, several support ships and many destroyers. Maybe it's possible to teach the AI to use support ships to clear mines if they block the path, and give them priority when plotting movement. So, other ships don't block the target hex. It would help not just in this case but generally when dealing with jerks like me laying minefields.

I mentioned this before put when playing the first US Philippine scenario, I clicked by accident on laying mines instead destroy bridge icon. There I noticed this had some severe consequences for the AI path finding. Since the AI did not tried to clear the mines. Instead of a short term disturbance it created more like a permanent barrier. Which caused the AI units to block each other and I suspect move some units sideways half the map. Basically I had almost no enemy units on one half of the map, but a huge bulk on the other. This allowed me to concentrate my defenders too. Despite it cost 20 points to drop a single mine, I saved it in needing lot less replacements.

I just got an other idea. Since you can't place mines when next to an enemy unit, how about a invisible unit that can't be interacted with but moved through. To create a no mine zone. Useful for scenarios builders too I guess.

In the patch, we have 'taught' the AI to use Engineers to clear land based minefields, so that is incoming. But this naval mines trick will still foil the AI.

We could automatically make exit hexes 'no-mine' zones. We're also considering adding a cool down period for mine laying (like torpedoes) to make it harder to create impermeable barriers.

Mines on exit hexes give the term exit a whole new meaning. IMO making them "no-mine" zones would be better indeed.

bebro wrote:Mines on exit hexes give the term exit a whole new meaning. IMO making them "no-mine" zones would be better indeed.

I suspect that will not prevent a determined player to mine all hexes around the exit zone, although he will have pay a higher cost. The approach with a cool down period for mine laying looks more suited in my opinion.

BTW

bebro wrote:Mines on exit hexes give the term exit a whole new meaning.

I guess you meant a final exit

I aggre giving a cooldown to mine laying ability would be a good think, especially for Catalina float planes. Since they don't need to refuel, cost little and flexible pathing allows dropping mines after moving!

I posted this earlier,

Dragoon wrote: This tactic could be fixed if dropping mines had a cool down. The unrealistic parts is not me mining the exit route, but that a Catalina has enough cargo space for enough naval mines to lock down god knows how many nautical miles. Like torpedo bombers a cool down should in an abstract way simulate rearming process.

This scenario, at least as patched, is very winnable by the US player following a more historical approach. Playing at Captain level, I used four Kingfishers and a PBY to fan out and search for the IJN carriers. Obviously most of these will eventually fall to Zeroes and AA, but I had one Kingfisher and the PBY survive (with one strength point left). In addition to scouting, they draw off Zeroes that might otherwise do greater damage to the US attacking planes. In the real event, PBY's fanned out in a huge arc until one of them found the main carrier force. I built two subs in addition to the one already in the scenario and deployed them as far west as allowed. I kept the US with the historical three carriers, but I did build a Wildcat, a TBD (in addition to the one already in the game) and an SBD at Midway, which is not very historical, and they quickly turned back the invasion fleet. As soon as the IJN carriers were spotted, I began launching TBD's and SBD's from my three carriers and sent the carrier force hurrying west to close the range -- until getting a warning about engaging in a surface ship battle. Early on I kept Wildcats back to intercept first the IJN scout planes and then the inevitable attack by Kates and Vals. They did a good job of winnowing down the bombers although several got through at reduced strength. After the invasion fleet was turned back and the air raids against Midway ceased I repaired the original Midway contingent of two TBD's, an SBD and a Wildcat and sent them west as soon as possible. Interestingly, moving the US carrier force rapidly west may have gotten me into some trouble with IJN subs because the carriers got well ahead of the AI managed destroyer screen -- over the course of the scenario my carriers took three sub torpedo attacks that caused damage and one that didn't. Between that and the damage done by Vals and Kates, at the end my carriers had strengths of six, five and three respectively, but all survived. A surface attack by about half a dozen IJN destroyers had to be fended off, but a couple of air attacks and attacks by virtually all of my cruisers stopped them and eventually sank them all (possibly one or two turned tail and ran). Once that last gasp was over, I drove one carrier (strength five) as far west and as fast as possible and kept up the pounding of the IJN carriers. Two subs also got in among them, although damaged, and got some hits. When it was over all five IJN carriers were sunk along with many destroyers, supply ships and the invasion transports. It was a very satisfying victory both because I kept it semi-historical and because it was touch and go keeping all of my carriers afloat.

You should not underestimate the satisfaction it gives to have a pin in your camapign map at Midway saying,

"Japan's largest and most modern Battleship, the Yamato, has been destroyed an can threaten our fleet not more."

Many Avenger Pilots died to bring us this information.

Kudos, chodan!

Just reached Midway again, let's see how it goes this time.

I didn't mine, didn't even try, mostly because I already spent my Air Power Command Points.

I attacked the invasion force first with my ships and dive bombers and launched the torpedo bombers later, after destroying incoming japanese bombers.
Then I destroyed two japanese carriers with subs, torpedo bombers and fighters/dive bombers. With little air cover left it wasn't much of a problem.

The retreat of the two heavy cruisers and the Nagato BB harmed the japanese fleet, as I could now perfectly fine bomb the remaining carriers and they also got in range of my cruisers and destroyers.
A Nagato BB also headed center from the south, but was also bombed.

Basically, since the patch got applied you can take your time to destroy the invasion force first, sweep the sky and THEN go in the for the kill. Might be close for all carriers, but definitely doable and not risking much.

One more thought -- It probably goes without saying, but eliminating the Tulagi invasion force and having the Neosho fleet oiler escape (which only requires a Wildcat to make one attack) in the Coral Sea scenario pays significant benefits in Midway.

Chodan wrote:One more thought -- It probably goes without saying, but eliminating the Tulagi invasion force and having the Neosho fleet oiler escape (which only requires a Wildcat to make one attack) in the Coral Sea scenario pays significant benefits in Midway.

Once I finished the US campaign I will restart and deliberately fail every secondary objective that has influence in the enemy deployments in following scenarios. I'm really intrested to know how the game plays out when everything goes furbar.

A side effect of the secondary objectives having quite an influence on future battles:

If you fail, things will be harder for you in future
If you do well, things will be even easier for you in future

@Dragoon: Now THAT is an interesting idea. I am really looking forward to read about your experiences!

I restarted the USA campaign and beat Midway with a perfect result, 5 carriers sunk and none lost. I am up to the Leyte Gulf scenario now.

As an aside, I have been kind of addicted to playing as the Americans, which is odd since I started off playing as the Japanese and have always preferred playing as the Axis in all World War II games I have ever played.

The scenario after Midway, forgot its name, probably Guadalcanal, the one with "Henderson Field" and the retreating US fleet...

... that one also has milking potential. I only destroyed 2 Japanese BBs, as I had only 2 dive bombers and a BB and 2 subs. I lost 2 destroyers nevertheless, but the rest of the ships remained undamaged or took only minor damage.
I only conquered 3 of the secondary objectives and this time unfortunately didn't get all Japanese planes either.

Just wonder if the objectives, the last 3 seem only lightly defended, can be taken for a more substantial bonus. Seems to be different per objective, the mountain gave 100 or 150, two along the coast only 50 or so.

Longasc, Guadalcanal last objective I flew airborne unit to it on the last turn the japs bail so free city to take hehehehe

In my first try I attempted to conquer them with Raiders, failed at first and ran into the jungle. Then to my surprise I saw how IA started move out. As soon only bunkers where left. I came back and used sneak attack to take them out. But true, like Pearl Harbor on the last turn. I was sweating a lot.

Can Marine Raider capture objective? nvr tried that unit yet

simcc wrote:Can Marine Raider capture objective? nvr tried that unit yet

No

Erik wrote:

simcc wrote:Can Marine Raider capture objective? nvr tried that unit yet

No

Really? Darn, and I didn't even noticed. You cannot see the objective window because of the Victory screen. Quite a lot of gold wasted for nothing.