Slitherine

Yes the third and higher ranks of a battle group in melee can be shot at. But so can a second rank if it is not in a position to fight. See page 84. Shooting and Close Combat.

Dear all,
This is my summary of the suggesstions already made plus a few more I have remembered. I urge you to keep this thread going with new suggestions. We have almost a printed page and a half of ideas so far. I would love to see the best 2 pages made available for newbies as a way of shortcutting some of the more obvious mistakes in their first few games.

Andy




Shooting POA against light horse is normally 0. The rules say ++ against unprotected cavalry. This can be misread to mean man on horse it does not. As such Light Horse are excluded.

A HF BG has one of it's bases in rough ground and the rest is in the open. When they fight they fight disordered. NO! Only the base that is in the rough ground fight disordered the rest are fine. Rules state it quite clearly but because I am now used to thinking in terms of units I ASSUME the whole unit is disordered.

LF can only charge non skirmishers in terrain, not in the open

LH despite being able to charge the flank of a non skirmisher BG without a CMT cannot intercept the charge of a non skirmisher BG even from the flank

Dice for shooting is resolved by target not by shooting BG so two BGs of 6 MF archers at effective range are just as effective as three BGs of 4

Troops can be bolstered when within 6 MU of the enemy

Support shooting at impact must be from archers in the same BG not a second BG providing support

Skirmishers never provide rear support

You do an immediate rout in any phase, followed by another rout in the JAP. (2 rout moves only on 1st turn a unit is routed)

Also the error of using a VMD for routers with no enemy in contact in the JAP, or chargers whose target does not evade, seems to crop up from time to time.

The third and higher ranks of a BG in melee can be shot at, as can any rank so long as they are not fighting either directly or as an overlap.

Multiple unit combats are worked out BG by BG.
So a BG takes a Cohesion test if it suffered more hits than it inflicted , the overall number of hits makes no difference.

A difficult advance is not the same thing as a complex move. Some advances are harder than others and are classes as difficult but a difficult advance only required a CMT for other undrilled troops.

A general with a BG only raises its quality for close combat. The general does not raise the BG quality in other phases such as shooting or in the joint action phase.
Also the quality is raised only for "to hit" dice, not cohesion test dice. You already get + on cohesion dice if a commander is with the BG (for close combat).

Rear support is your friend. You need to have at least 50% the number of stands in the support group as the BG you are supporting and to count as support these bases must be behind at least partially behind the 'supported' BG.

Also, you can support 2 BGs by stacking the 'supporters' in a column that stay between those 2 BGs.

If the only rank shooting is the second rank it shoots at full effect. The rules specify the first shooting rank not the first rank.

Remember when calculating >=1 HP2B for shooting (or HP3B for close combat) Pikes or others in 4 ranks only count the first 3 ranks. So an 8 base pike unit only counts as a 6 base unit.

Remember BREAK OFFS in the JAP. If mounted (not elephants) charge foot and do not disrupt them in the Impact or Melee phase then you break off. I keep forgetting this one 

2 base BG’s such as elephants and Triarii auto break if they drop to 1 base (Same as all other BG’s there are no exceptions)

Pursuit/Rout a routers base is lost EVERY rout move there is a pursuer still in contact, thus in the first turn a unit is routed it could lose 2 bases as in this turn only there are 2 rout moves.

Elephants are NOT shock troops

Disrupted non shock BG’s (inc elephants) must pass a CMT to charge anything

When feeding bases into an existing melee, you may move bases in the first turns fighting after the initial impact phase and before the first melee phase. You may not move bases that are already in position to fight as an overlap in the forthcoming melee phase

Neither chargers or evaders (even horse archers) can fire in the shooting phase of the current turn.

Shooters can fire forwards, and some skirmishers can fire backwards but only battle wagons can fire through the side are of a base

Commanders who fought in the front rank do not have to roll to risk being killed unless their BG suffered at least 2 hits in close combat.

If a BG of Pikes or spears, which receive bonus's for extra ranks, lose a base to a death roll does the whole unit or none of the unit lose this rank bonus? POA's are calculated by file/column not by unit, so only files that had actually lost a base would lose the rank bonus.

LH are not undrilled cav, but are skirmiskers and move as such.

Mounted with light spear only count as a POA in impact when all other POAs are caneled or net out to zero.

Warchariot wrote:LH are not undrilled cav, but are skirmiskers and move as such.

Probably a general catch all to say that not all troops on horses are cavalry. All troops on horses are mounted but ar split into light horse, cavalry, cataphracts and knights. Where the rules mention cavalry they mean just that.

Hammy,
I hope this thread is useful to some players, if it is perceived to be so would it be worth stickying it or you creating a new moderated thread with the last post from here in it?

Andy

Shooting POA against light horse is normally 0. The rules say ++ against unprotected cavalry. This can be misread to mean man on horse it does not. As such Light Horse are excluded.

A HF BG has one of it's bases in rough ground and the rest is in the open. When they fight they fight disordered. NO! Only the base that is in the rough ground fight disordered the rest are fine. Rules state it quite clearly but because I am now used to thinking in terms of units I ASSUME the whole unit is disordered.

LF can only charge non skirmishers in terrain, not in the open

LH despite being able to charge the flank of a non skirmisher BG without a CMT cannot intercept the charge of a non skirmisher BG even from the flank

Dice for shooting is resolved by target not by shooting BG so two BGs of 6 MF archers at effective range are just as effective as three BGs of 4

Troops can be bolstered when within 6 MU of the enemy

Support shooting at impact must be from archers in the same BG not a second BG providing support

Skirmishers never provide rear support

You do an immediate rout in any phase, followed by another rout in the JAP. (2 rout moves only on 1st turn a unit is routed)

Also the error of using a VMD for routers with no enemy in contact in the JAP, or chargers whose target does not evade, seems to crop up from time to time.

The third and higher ranks of a BG in melee can be shot at, as can any rank so long as they are not fighting either directly or as an overlap.

Multiple unit combats are worked out BG by BG.
So a BG takes a Cohesion test if it suffered more hits than it inflicted , the overall number of hits makes no difference.

A difficult advance is not the same thing as a complex move. Some advances are harder than others and are classes as difficult but a difficult advance only required a CMT for other undrilled troops.

A general with a BG only raises its quality for close combat. The general does not raise the BG quality in other phases such as shooting or in the joint action phase.
Also the quality is raised only for "to hit" dice, not cohesion test dice. You already get + on cohesion dice if a commander is with the BG (for close combat).

Rear support is your friend. You need to have at least 50% the number of stands in the support group as the BG you are supporting and to count as support these bases must be behind at least partially behind the 'supported' BG.

Also, you can support 2 BGs by stacking the 'supporters' in a column that stay between those 2 BGs.

If the only rank shooting is the second rank it shoots at full effect. The rules specify the first shooting rank not the first rank.

Remember when calculating >=1 HP2B for shooting (or HP3B for close combat) Pikes or others in 4 ranks only count the first 3 ranks. So an 8 base pike unit only counts as a 6 base unit.

Remember BREAK OFFS in the JAP. If mounted (not elephants) charge foot and do not disrupt them in the Impact or Melee phase then you break off. I keep forgetting this one

2 base BG’s such as elephants and Triarii auto break if they drop to 1 base (Same as all other BG’s there are no exceptions)

Pursuit/Rout a routers base is lost EVERY rout move there is a pursuer still in contact, thus in the first turn a unit is routed it could lose 2 bases as in this turn only there are 2 rout moves.

Elephants are NOT shock troops

Disrupted non shock BG’s (inc elephants) must pass a CMT to charge anything

When feeding bases into an existing melee, you may move bases in the first turns fighting after the initial impact phase and before the first melee phase. You may not move bases that are already in position to fight as an overlap in the forthcoming melee phase

Neither chargers or evaders (even horse archers) can fire in the shooting phase of the current turn.

Shooters can fire forwards, and some skirmishers can fire backwards but only battle wagons can fire through the side are of a base

Commanders who fought in the front rank do not have to roll to risk being killed unless their BG suffered at least 2 hits in close combat.

If a BG of Pikes or spears, which receive bonus's for extra ranks, lose a base to a death roll does the whole unit or none of the unit lose this rank bonus? POA's are calculated by file/column not by unit, so only files that had actually lost a base would lose the rank bonus.

Probably a general catch all to say that not all troops on horses are cavalry. All troops on horses are mounted but ar split into light horse, cavalry, cataphracts and knights. Where the rules mention cavalry they mean just that.

Republican romans MUST take a fortified camp at 24 points.

Mounted light spear only count a + POA if without it the result would have been no net POA to either side

miffedofreading wrote:Pursuit/Rout a routers base is lost EVERY rout move there is a pursuer still in contact, thus in the first turn a unit is routed it could lose 2 bases as in this turn only there are 2 rout moves.

For each BG in contact

Shooters can fire forwards, and some skirmishers can fire backwards but only battle wagons can fire through the side are of a base

LH and light chariots can fire backwards.

Probably a general catch all to say that not all troops on horses are cavalry. All troops on horses are mounted but ar split into light horse, cavalry, cataphracts and knights. Where the rules mention cavalry they mean just that.

but men on camels may be cavalry.

Shooting POA against light horse is normally 0. The rules say ++ against unprotected cavalry. This can be misread to mean man on horse it does not. As such Light Horse are excluded.

A HF BG has one of it's bases in rough ground and the rest is in the open. When they fight they fight disordered. NO! Only the base that is in the rough ground fight disordered the rest are fine. Rules state it quite clearly but because I am now used to thinking in terms of units I ASSUME the whole unit is disordered.

LF can only charge non skirmishers in terrain, not in the open

LH despite being able to charge the flank of a non skirmisher BG without a CMT cannot intercept the charge of a non skirmisher BG even from the flank

Dice for shooting is resolved by target not by shooting BG so two BGs of 6 MF archers at effective range are just as effective as three BGs of 4

Troops can be bolstered when within 6 MU of the enemy

Support shooting at impact must be from archers in the same BG not a second BG providing support

Skirmishers never provide rear support

You do an immediate rout in any phase, followed by another rout in the JAP. (2 rout moves only on 1st turn a unit is routed)

Also the error of using a VMD for routers with no enemy in contact in the JAP, or chargers whose target does not evade, seems to crop up from time to time.

The third and higher ranks of a BG in melee can be shot at, as can any rank so long as they are not fighting either directly or as an overlap.

Multiple unit combats are worked out BG by BG.
So a BG takes a Cohesion test if it suffered more hits than it inflicted , the overall number of hits makes no difference.

A difficult advance is not the same thing as a complex move. Some advances are harder than others and are classes as difficult but a difficult advance only required a CMT for other undrilled troops.

A general with a BG only raises its quality for close combat. The general does not raise the BG quality in other phases such as shooting or in the joint action phase.
Also the quality is raised only for "to hit" dice, not cohesion test dice. You already get + on cohesion dice if a commander is with the BG (for close combat).

Rear support is your friend. You need to have at least 50% the number of stands in the support group as the BG you are supporting and to count as support these bases must be behind at least partially behind the 'supported' BG.

Also, you can support 2 BGs by stacking the 'supporters' in a column that stay between those 2 BGs.

If the only rank shooting is the second rank it shoots at full effect. The rules specify the first shooting rank not the first rank.

Remember when calculating >=1 HP2B for shooting (or HP3B for close combat) Pikes or others in 4 ranks only count the first 3 ranks. So an 8 base pike unit only counts as a 6 base unit.

Remember BREAK OFFS in the JAP. If mounted (not elephants) charge foot and do not disrupt them in the Impact or Melee phase then you break off. I keep forgetting this one

2 base BG’s such as elephants and Triarii auto break if they drop to 1 base (Same as all other BG’s there are no exceptions)

Pursuit/Rout a router loses one base per pursuer in contact EVERY rout move there is a pursuer still in contact, thus in the first turn a unit is routed it could lose 2 bases (per pursuer) as in this turn only there are 2 rout moves.

Elephants are NOT shock troops

Disrupted non shock BG’s (inc elephants) must pass a CMT to charge anything

When feeding bases into an existing melee, you may move bases in the first turns fighting after the initial impact phase and before the first melee phase. You may not move bases that are already in position to fight as an overlap in the forthcoming melee phase

Neither chargers or evaders (even horse archers) can fire in the shooting phase of the current turn.

Shooters can fire forwards, LH and light chariots can fire backwards but only battle wagons can fire through the side are of a base

Commanders who fought in the front rank do not have to roll to risk being killed unless their BG suffered at least 2 hits in close combat.

If a BG of Pikes or spears, which receive bonus's for extra ranks, lose a base to a death roll does the whole unit or none of the unit lose this rank bonus? POA's are calculated by file/column not by unit, so only files that had actually lost a base would lose the rank bonus.

Probably a general catch all to say that not all troops on horses are cavalry. All troops on horses are mounted but ar split into light horse, cavalry, cataphracts and knights. Where the rules mention cavalry they mean just that.

Republican romans MUST take a fortified camp at 24 points.

Mounted light spear only count a + POA if without it the result would have been no net POA to either side

Even if you meet all other criteria you do not count as charging an opponent in the flank if the chargers move less than 1 inch. I have completely missed this one and it is of course quite common. I THINK you still charge but count as a frontal charge, I need to check the rules for this.

Andy

I am going to stop posting long additions to this thread. Instead I am now editing the first post so you can always look there for the current version of my list of newby common mistakes.

If anyone has anything to add, spots any errors or really thinks something is so obvious it should be taken off then please let me know

Andy

miffedofreading wrote: Even if you meet all other criteria you do not count as charging an opponent in the flank if the chargers move less than 1 inch. I have completely missed this one and it is of course quite common. I THINK you still charge but count as a frontal charge, I need to check the rules for this.

Andy

This in incorrect.
The rule is "For a charge to qualify as a flank ... charge, it cannot include a wheel unless the charging BG starts with its nearest point >= 1 MU ..."

key differences
if you don't wheel it doesn't matter how close you are.
It is how far away you start not how far you move - so you can't move 1 MU up the side of a column and then wheel 90 to get the 1 MU.

Yes you can still do it if you don't qualify as a flank charge - the rules are defined in terms of qualifying a charge as a flank charge, so failure to qualify doesn't stop the charge.

If you are a real newbie to historical wargaming, I've now added a new handy buzz-word & phrase generator to my website so even if you don't know the rules, you can at least hold your own in the bar afterwards

Its here Online Wargames Cliche Generator

Hope its of use

Tim
www.madaxeman.com

Very nice random phrase generator, Tim... well done!

Cheers,
Scott

What a amazingly helpful thread. Thanks. I think FOG is going to be a realy big learning curve.

Glad you like it

I really like FoG, but I don't think newbies should underestimate the learning curve. It's like driving a car, all makes sense and seems natural enough when you know how, but a lot to try and figure out until you have.

I don't think I have ever played a set of rules that looked so complicated at first read ad actually turned out to be so straightforward once I got into them..

Andy

miffedofreading wrote:
I don't think I have ever played a set of rules that looked so complicated at first read ad actually turned out to be so straightforward once I got into them..

Usually they are the other way around!

One of the things that this thread does make clear is that a lot of people seem to only read half a rule or that having read the full rule they decide that as the rule is obviously too simple there must be more to it.

The long and short of it is that the vast majority of the rules are very clear and mean exactly what they say.

I think we all bring a lot of baggage to the game , so many different rule set floating around in my head , I can't remember what's what

hammy wrote:One of the things that this thread does make clear is that a lot of people seem to only read half a rule or that having read the full rule they decide that as the rule is obviously too simple there must be more to it.

The long and short of it is that the vast majority of the rules are very clear and mean exactly what they say.

Yeah, I've had a difficult time learning rules that mean what they say, no less and no more. I developed a habit of reading things into rules that are not in the text by necessity (*coughDBMcough*).

It is also worth remembering that the rules are 175 pages long. That is a lot to read and remember every line of on a first read through.

Yes I know that once you have played the game a few times it all makes sense and you kind of know what to remember. But on an initial read of the rules you don't know what you need to remember and you can't remember all of it straight away.

The whole point of this thread was not to complain about poorly written rules. They are very well written, it is just to let the newby which things he needs to remember which may have slipped his memory.

Just bumping the post. Will stop doing that if asked to

Ta

Andy
PS Anyone got any more little bits to add for newbies??

miffedofreading wrote:Just bumping the post. Will stop doing that if asked to

Ta

Andy
PS Anyone got any more little bits to add for newbies??

Rather than bumping, maybe this thread should be a sticky?

Peter