Slitherine

hammy wrote:I think (but may be wrong) that 2 base BGs of superior or elite troops don't actually auto break on being reduced to 1 base but are removed and count as destroyed in the JAP.

That's another distinction I totally failed to pick up.

So, exceeding auto-break percentage = rout, but reduced to one base but not exceeding auto-break percentage = evaporate, eh?

nikgaukroger wrote: Mine seem to be around 3 hours to a result now. 20+ games played.

Yes I must say now if you have both players experienced say 10+ games it moves quite quick.

hammy wrote:I think (but may be wrong) that 2 base BGs of superior or elite troops don't actually auto break on being reduced to 1 base but are removed and count as destroyed in the JAP.

Sorry Hammy you have lost me?
I thought auto rout for superiors war 50% which means one out of 2 bases??
I think the elephants are all average anyway so that doesn't apply does it?

We did also have a 2 element Triarii BG lose a base from a death roll and presumed it immediately routed???

Andy

AND I forgot all about it but there's a rule about units being removed when they go down to one base....

Which takes precedence?

Andy

BG's break when they have taken MORE than a set percentage losses so a 6 base average BG breaks when it has taken more than 40% losses or more than 2.4 bases which in reality is 3 bases. The same 6 base BG if superior will break if it takes more than 50% losses or more than 3 bases which in practice means it autobreaks when the 4th base dies.

A 2 base BG of superiors or elites will not be autobroken by the loss of one base so will not rout on the loss of a base BUT at the end of the JAP any BG that has been reduced to 1 base is removed from play and if that BG was not broken at the time it was removed neaby BGs have to test as if seeing a rout. See P116

Thanks Hammy, I missed the MORE than.

I remembered another question that came up. You can field republican hastati as 4 element or 8 element BG's Triarii can be 2 or 4. Can you mix and match. Can you have hastati and Triarii in 4 element battle groups. Can you have both 4 element and 8 element hastati battlegroups in the same army??

Ta

Andy

As I read the Mid Republican list you could have:

2 BGs of 4 Hasti & Principes with 1 BG of 2 Triarii

and

2 BGs of 8 Hasti & Principes with 1 BG of 4 Triarii

In the same army.

In essence a strong and a weak legion working together.

Ok dessciated then

Si

OK Hammy,

Sounds as though split sizes per "legion" is ok but you have to keep the ratio's correct WITHIN each legion not just overall.

Ta

Andy

hammy wrote:As I read the Mid Republican list you could have:

2 BGs of 4 Hasti & Principes with 1 BG of 2 Triarii

and

2 BGs of 8 Hasti & Principes with 1 BG of 4 Triarii

In the same army.

In essence a strong and a weak legion working together.

I would like to respectfully propose a 'second opinion.' According to the army list instructions [Rise of Rome, p. 8]:

"Depending on the size of the army represented, a legion could be organised as 2 battle groups, each of 4 hastasti and principes, and one battle group of 2 triarii, or as 2 battle groups, each of 8 hastasti and principes, and one battle group of 2 triarii."

I interpret that as intending for the legions to be represented in a consistent way, i.e. 10 stands of hastati/principes/triarii per legion for the entire army, or 20 stands per legion for the entire army, depending on the size of the army being represented. That would also be consistent with the historical record for the period. Of course, what might be considered 'legal' for points-based tournaments may be another matter entirely.

Cheers,
Scott

That tells you how an individual legio can be organised, it doesn't say that all legiones in your army must be organised in the same way. I am not aware that it was the intention to force all the legiones in an army to be the same.

Historically it is OK for legiones to be of different sizes IMO.

nikgaukroger wrote:Historically it is OK for legiones to be of different sizes IMO.

I cannot think of any examples of historical battles in which Mid-Republican legions, some twice the size of the others, fought side by side in the same battle. I am well aware of the gradual attrition of some of Caesar's legions, which of course took place gradually over several years of constant campaigning. However, legions of the Mid-Republic were enlisted for much shorter periods of time, so I don't think that the varying strengths of Caesar's legions can be used to justify fielding legions of radically differing sizes in the Mid Republic. A couple of bases here and there, perhaps, but not some legions 100% larger than others.

On the other hand, if someone can provide citations demonstrating a 100% size differential among Mid-Republican legions fighting in the same army at the same battle, I would be happy to revise my view.

Cheers,
Scott

Well you're never going to get precise figures so don't expect anyone to show you that a given legio was 2x the size of another We don't usually get any figures for the size of each legio just a global figure - the strength of each could easily vary quite significantly from the average depending on what they had been doing.

Also remember that the base numbers include allies fighting in the Roman style so allowing for plenty more wiggle room.

However, I would suggest that at the Metaurus the legiones taken north by Claudius Nero were likely to have been a different size from those he joined due to his having to pick men who could make such a march.

Oh, bottom line is that if you think that it is more realistic to have your legiones the same size the list allows you to do so, and if you think it is plausible that they could have been different the list allows that as well

Fair enough!

Cheers,
Scott

Thanks guys. Personally I think it would look more histroical to have similar sized but then in game turns that may be difficult.

e.g. I intend to field 24 legionaries in blocks of 8. The split will be 16/8 with one half being elite and the other half being regular. might switch which is which.

The legion with 16 will have a 4 element triarii unit and 2 X 8 element hastati units.

The 8 element legion will only have 2 triarii and either 2 X 4 hastati or 1 X 8 (probably the latter).

I did field 32 legions but it does not allow points for much else and they are all regulars no vets.

Andy