Slitherine

I think what I suggested is not understood fully. When you buy the rules you get 2 started armies on cardstock (The 2 in the rules), and 2 QRFs on cardstock. that is more than enough to find out if you want to build other armies and buy more army lists. If you get get a army list book all you get is the army list book. Napleons Battles did that and you were able to play Napoelnics right out of the box. And no that was not the reason Avlon Hill went under.

Unfortunately card inserts in the rules were I believe ruled out because of issues with potential theft and such of the extra bits.

It would certainly be possible to make a starter army pack and for a while I investigated the costs of doing this. While not massive the real issue is would there be a market for them at a price that made it worthwhile to do.

I suspect that the market is limited and that a print and cut it out yourself version is a far better idea.

Put it in a box or some sort of package. If it costs a bit more most of the Ancient players would have still bought it. Look at the price of WAB. Saying you guys are worrying about theft of the bits is kind of a lame excuse. I see all sorts of rules out there with "bits" and they seem to be doing fine. Some are cheaper than FoG some are more. Some have more cleaver graphics some less. We have to try and get more people in the hobby of Ancients. Most new gamers are into Warhamster, Warhamster 40K and the WW2 version Flames of War. To get these guys into the hobby the need something to use and say "Hey these Ancient armies are pretty cool, I think I will get a army list book and a starter army". The power of pushing around tanks is pretty strong, plus easy to paint. We need to get them to start using these rules.

Last time I played in a tourny was 1979. And last Little Wars I was really bummed I was on duty and COULD NOT play in a Tourny using these rules. They really are the best thing for Biblical to the 1500. That is saying a lot for your rules system. So far I have bought every book, built 2 armies and plan to build a Greek one once I get the book. And I have not owned a 15mm Ancient figure for 15 years. So let's make it more user freindly for the new guys and the Warhamster/FOW crowd.

I am sure once they see they don't need magic, death angels or 88s They will love it as much as me.

Dave Bosse

go to www.wargamevault.com and search in ancients - Romans, Gaul, Indians, Persians, Greeks so far.
BR

irondog068 wrote: I am sure once they see they don't need magic, death angels or 88s They will love it as much as me.

Thoze thingz sound really RAD ! You mean there's game where I can uze cool dudes like theze instead of these boring ancients things where I've just found out that I can't even buy the exact figures for every troop type in every army (complete with a detailed painting guide) from my local store ?? This new game sounds MUCH better !!!

Hey - lets all ditch this FoG rubbish and get playing "Magic Death Angelz on Bikes, all tooled up with 88's!"

tim(z)

ps - Do Death Angels come in 4-paks???

Those papers armies look good and I would be happy to play a game of FOG with someone who brought a paper army to a tourney.

MARVIN_THE_ARVN wrote:Those papers armies look good and I would be happy to play a game of FOG with someone who brought a paper army to a tourney.

Yeah but you use 6mm figures on 15mm bases so are a heretic from the outset

Yeah but you use 6mm figures on 15mm bases so are a heretic from the outset

Guilty, does that mean im going to be burnt at the mold and im not going to 15mm FOG heaven?

There are quite a few of us heretics out there.

willb wrote:There are quite a few of us heretics out there.

To be honest if I could wave a magic wand and magic all my 15mm armies into 6mm on 15mm bases I would do so in an instant. I think that 6mm on 15mm bases looks really good. It is just the huge inertia of getting on for 40 A4 file boxes of painted 15mm armies that makes me not do it.

There are quite a few of us heretics out there.

I knew I couldnt be alone!!!! Dont worry brothers, our time will come when the stars are correctly aligned.

To be honest if I could wave a magic wand and magic all my 15mm armies into 6mm on 15mm bases I would do so in an instant.

And a better man you would be for it!!!

It is just the huge inertia of getting on for 40 A4 file boxes of painted 15mm armies that makes me not do it

That is a very good point.

hammy wrote:

willb wrote:There are quite a few of us heretics out there.

To be honest if I could wave a magic wand and magic all my 15mm armies into 6mm on 15mm bases I would do so in an instant. I think that 6mm on 15mm bases looks really good. It is just the huge inertia of getting on for 40 A4 file boxes of painted 15mm armies that makes me not do it.

Magic wand, or credit card both are with your power.

hammy wrote:Unfortunately card inserts in the rules were I believe ruled out because of issues with potential theft and such of the extra bits.

It would certainly be possible to make a starter army pack and for a while I investigated the costs of doing this. While not massive the real issue is would there be a market for them at a price that made it worthwhile to do.

I suspect that the market is limited and that a print and cut it out yourself version is a far better idea.

Good to know that this has been studied. Have to say I'm surprised by the results. But then the point of marketing studies is to be surprised. Wouldn't be worth doing if they only told you what you expected to find.

Still think one of the problems with these games is that we've been playing them so long we forget how difficult they are for newcomers. One of the great advantages of Games Workshop is that their stores provide advice and all that is needed for beginners. The general hobby shops that helped us start out are now few and far between.

You can buy a computer game and start playing within the hour. If you buy a board wargame or Eurogame you expect it to contain all you need to play.

Would Monopoly have caught on if you bought only the rules, had to make your own board, send off somewhere obscure to buy the houses (and weren't quite sure which ones you needed unless you could find a veteran player to advise) and were looked-down on if you played with unpainted pieces?

The great thing about Fog is that the rules are well enough written and contain enough supporting info to be played by someone who has never seen a wargame. With two serious companies behind them they have what is needed to break us out of being such a minority hobby.

I should have thought that the rules, dice and pre-cut top-down views of the starter armies, perhaps a couple bits of card printed with terrain and a measuring rule could be boxed and sold for not much more than the cost of a new computergame or board wargame.

Manufacturers might put in a sprue or two of their figures (maybe the generals) in return for a flyer advertising their starter armies. So those who enjoyed the game could get into the habit of transforming their card pieces into bases. But the great thing would be that everything needed would be in the box. It could be opened on Christmas morning and be played on Boxing Day.

Alan

Perhaps something for a mini-fog game?

acl wrote:Good to know that this has been studied. Have to say I'm surprised by the results. But then the point of marketing studies is to be surprised. Wouldn't be worth doing if they only told you what you expected to find.

<big>

When FoG was under development I looked quite seriously at lots of ideas along these lines and to be honest given the right exposure I think they could do very well. The problem is getting the exposure. As I am now working as a director of a boardgames company I might just be able to come up with something nice. The real issue is that if it would need to sell perhaps 500 or more copies to be worth doing.

hammy wrote:

acl wrote:Good to know that this has been studied. Have to say I'm surprised by the results. But then the point of marketing studies is to be surprised. Wouldn't be worth doing if they only told you what you expected to find.

<big>

When FoG was under development I looked quite seriously at lots of ideas along these lines and to be honest given the right exposure I think they could do very well. The problem is getting the exposure. As I am now working as a director of a boardgames company I might just be able to come up with something nice. The real issue is that if it would need to sell perhaps 500 or more copies to be worth doing.

This is very encouraging. Hope it works out.

Alan

If a gamer is "jumping into ancients" and is not in a club or near a group of ancients gamers - the task to build an ancients army is a daunting one. Figuring out which army and finding figures - while fun to us veterens is hard for the new kid on the block. With brick and mortar stores in the decline (at least in Chicago) it is hard for the new guys to even look at figures except at conventions.
I have seen games played with paper figures at conventions and yes they are kind of goofy to us old lead poisoned hardcases - but if someone can play FOG - I think we can hook them - so I say - if something can be done - let them do it - so we get more gamers

in the last couple of days I talked this over with some other gamers in our gaming club here in the western suburbs of Chicagoland and their thoughts were that as "minature gamers" we are NOT "board gamers" and as such we should use figurines not paper. BUT I say that as playable as FOG is - that if we can get gamers playing that we can convert them!

Legionbuilder wrote:in the last couple of days I talked this over with some other gamers in our gaming club here in the western suburbs of Chicagoland and their thoughts were that as "minature gamers" we are NOT "board gamers" and as such we should use figurines not paper. BUT I say that as playable as FOG is - that if we can get gamers playing that we can convert them!

Paper miniatures and metal flats go back a long way with war gaming. I have also seen armies made from hair rollers, food, plastic, clay, ceramics, and wood. The "Boardgamegeek" website also reviews miniature rules in addition to boardgames. Some boardgames use miniatures and I know of at least one set of ancient rules that has been designed to be played as both a board and miniature game and on the computer via hotseat or email.

If a person wants to try a new army, instead of buying a large batch of miniatures only to find out that they don't like it, they could use a "paper" army. Also, a paper army would be a way to introduce new players to the game without the risk of having your figures damaged, or for someone who is traveling and can't bring their miniatures with them a way to practice or play a game if figures are not available.