Why not post a PDF of the neat top-down views used in the rule book diagrams ? If configured to match the Roman and Carthaginian Starter armies in the book new players could get a head start !
Not sure if copyright etc would allow this.
Alternatively there are a couple of web sites with paper armies out there, but (IMHO) they are not as good as the ones in the rule book.
Paper Armies
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IainMcNeil
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It's not a problem IF the owner of the copyright does it. There is a well established tradition of rules publishers that did not produce miniatures creating cardboard/paper tokens for their games. This gives players a chance to quickly play the game, like it, buy the supplements, encourage their friends, etc.
It is now easy & no cost for a publisher to publish a pdf of sample army counter and have it available to players. (With appropriate copyright warnings, for personal use only)
Case in point, in the past month I have bought an army, primed it and have it attached to bases. I'm ready to play. I haven't been able to try the game though because the other 5 guys in my game group have not been so fast off the mark. They've bought the book and some have ordered armies... but the initial excitement has started to fade. The rules are hard to pick up just by reading through a time or two. You need to play it.
If there were high quality counter available, we would have already been playing and enjoying the game.
Is the target audience new historical gamers or just players with existing armies from other rulesets?
It is now easy & no cost for a publisher to publish a pdf of sample army counter and have it available to players. (With appropriate copyright warnings, for personal use only)
Case in point, in the past month I have bought an army, primed it and have it attached to bases. I'm ready to play. I haven't been able to try the game though because the other 5 guys in my game group have not been so fast off the mark. They've bought the book and some have ordered armies... but the initial excitement has started to fade. The rules are hard to pick up just by reading through a time or two. You need to play it.
If there were high quality counter available, we would have already been playing and enjoying the game.
Is the target audience new historical gamers or just players with existing armies from other rulesets?
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Quintus
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Spot on.Mascius wrote:If there were high quality counter available, we would have already been playing and enjoying the game.
Is the target audience new historical gamers or just players with existing armies from other rulesets?
I'm trying to build two armies out of 1/72 plastics just to get something up and running so that I can test things.
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pezhetairoi
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Dudes!
Just get some high school art student to draw you some. Somebody's son or daughter.
Draw a front view, a back view, fold 'em in half and glue 'em to the correct base. Copy them as many times as you want.
You can use them for any game to try out rules.
You'd be laughed out of a tournament, but thats doesn't seem to be your intention.
More than half the fun of toy soldier games is the toy soldiers, but some paper proxies can be a great way to learn armies while under construction.
Just get some high school art student to draw you some. Somebody's son or daughter.
Draw a front view, a back view, fold 'em in half and glue 'em to the correct base. Copy them as many times as you want.
You can use them for any game to try out rules.
You'd be laughed out of a tournament, but thats doesn't seem to be your intention.
More than half the fun of toy soldier games is the toy soldiers, but some paper proxies can be a great way to learn armies while under construction.
http://freenet-homepage.de/dirk.schoenberger/
you can save the images, then cut and paste individual figures on to bases made using Power Point
you can save the images, then cut and paste individual figures on to bases made using Power Point
there are a whole bunch of paper armies available at
http://www.mogworld.ukf.net/cardwars.html
and
http://www.wjohnson.freeuk.com/index.htm
http://www.mogworld.ukf.net/cardwars.html
and
http://www.wjohnson.freeuk.com/index.htm
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MarkSieber
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Try also:
http://www.juniorgeneral.org/paper.html
Both top-down and standup type paper for all periods.
http://www.juniorgeneral.org/paper.html
Both top-down and standup type paper for all periods.
Yes. Players can certainly do it themselves. I've done DIY proxy armies in the past.
However, the reviews of FoG all talk about the high production values. One of the draws of the rules are the visuals from Osprey and the great diagrams. The first post was suggesting that pdfs counters could be published that are of the same high quality and encourage NEW players to start playing right away.
My point is that if you want players that are NEW to historical wargaming and not just pulled from other rulesets then you need to reduce the barriers to learning the game. Having to find a site, figure out what you need, download the poorer quality graphics and then printing enough of each unit type is much different than going to the publishers site and printing out the two starter armies in the book and having a go.
Paper starter armies is a suggestion that the publisher could implement very quickly that would help NEW players and in turn increase sales and market share. Copyright concerns are valid but a company can use their intellectual property to create profits without harming their overall product. Give an episode away so they'll buy the season. Give some graphics aways so they'll buy the supplements and the source books and the miniatures.
I'm sure that when FoG 2.0 comes out they will have quick start rules, pdf playsheets and plastic starter armies that you can buy on the first day. Right now though, it is a little more difficult for someone new to historical wargaming to get started.
However, the reviews of FoG all talk about the high production values. One of the draws of the rules are the visuals from Osprey and the great diagrams. The first post was suggesting that pdfs counters could be published that are of the same high quality and encourage NEW players to start playing right away.
My point is that if you want players that are NEW to historical wargaming and not just pulled from other rulesets then you need to reduce the barriers to learning the game. Having to find a site, figure out what you need, download the poorer quality graphics and then printing enough of each unit type is much different than going to the publishers site and printing out the two starter armies in the book and having a go.
Paper starter armies is a suggestion that the publisher could implement very quickly that would help NEW players and in turn increase sales and market share. Copyright concerns are valid but a company can use their intellectual property to create profits without harming their overall product. Give an episode away so they'll buy the season. Give some graphics aways so they'll buy the supplements and the source books and the miniatures.
I'm sure that when FoG 2.0 comes out they will have quick start rules, pdf playsheets and plastic starter armies that you can buy on the first day. Right now though, it is a little more difficult for someone new to historical wargaming to get started.
Mascius wrote:Yes. Players can certainly do it themselves. I've done DIY proxy armies in the past.
My point is that if you want players that are NEW to historical wargaming and not just pulled from other rulesets then you need to reduce the barriers to learning the game. Having to find a site, figure out what you need, download the poorer quality graphics and then printing enough of each unit type is much different than going to the publishers site and printing out the two starter armies in the book and having a go.
.
quite so. i just read a post on a yahoo group for one of the local clubs where a person new to ancients was asking about what rule set and figures to get.
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irondog068
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I seem to remmber a site that had nicley painted minitures or pcitures like the book for armies. If I find I will let you know. Fataticus web site may be a place to start. If it for your own use and can't find them I would make a 300 point army out of the book. Problem is is the ones in the book are too small and not all troop types needed are shown. You would burn up a lot of ink getting them to the proper size.
15mm: Swiss, Spartans, Late Republic Romans, EIR Romans, and can you believe it Samurai. 800 points
28mm: Late Republic Romans 650 points
28mm: Samurai 800 points
28mm: Late Republic Romans 650 points
28mm: Samurai 800 points
You'll get no argument from me. But until that happens the above resources are about the only way to go.Mascius wrote:My point is that if you want players that are NEW to historical wargaming and not just pulled from other rulesets then you need to reduce the barriers to learning the game. Having to find a site, figure out what you need, download the poorer quality graphics and then printing enough of each unit type is much different than going to the publishers site and printing out the two starter armies in the book and having a go.
When printing paper models of various sizes, to save ink I recomend doing the following:
1) open a new MSWord or PowerPoint file.
2) turn on the ruler and enlarge the view.
3) insert as a picture the unit you want to print
4) using the ruler as a guide, adjust the size of the picture to fit the scale.
5) repete until the army fills the page.
This probably won't do much for image quality, but it will let you use a 15mm of 28mm picture.
1) open a new MSWord or PowerPoint file.
2) turn on the ruler and enlarge the view.
3) insert as a picture the unit you want to print
4) using the ruler as a guide, adjust the size of the picture to fit the scale.
5) repete until the army fills the page.
This probably won't do much for image quality, but it will let you use a 15mm of 28mm picture.
Another point to bear in mind is one of limited resources, in terms of time and manpower. Time and energy expended in one project will necessarily mean time and energy taken from another. I suspect that the priority is currently on finishing the army list books. This is a very wise thing, IMHO.
Or would you like to be the one to tell all of the folks clamoring for Ottoman, Byzantine, Bronze Age, Dark Age, Far Eastern, etc. army lists that they'll have to wait an additional six months for those lists to be published, while the FoG team instead concentrates on making paper PDF armies available for download?
Cheers,
Scott
Or would you like to be the one to tell all of the folks clamoring for Ottoman, Byzantine, Bronze Age, Dark Age, Far Eastern, etc. army lists that they'll have to wait an additional six months for those lists to be published, while the FoG team instead concentrates on making paper PDF armies available for download?
Cheers,
Scott
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irondog068
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I was thinking,
If Slitherine had not been so worried about people copying parts of there book (That fear of losing money probably comes from doing software) and printed both the starter armies in the main rule book on cardstock and a QRF sheet on cardstock I think that would have helped marked the book even more.
If people didn't like it, they made money. And Miniture gamers would still buy lead because we can. But to get guys into a hobby after buying a book, now dropping $100.00 or so for a starter army, plus painting. It may have been a easier sell if newbies had something to play with.
Irondog
If Slitherine had not been so worried about people copying parts of there book (That fear of losing money probably comes from doing software) and printed both the starter armies in the main rule book on cardstock and a QRF sheet on cardstock I think that would have helped marked the book even more.
If people didn't like it, they made money. And Miniture gamers would still buy lead because we can. But to get guys into a hobby after buying a book, now dropping $100.00 or so for a starter army, plus painting. It may have been a easier sell if newbies had something to play with.
Irondog
15mm: Swiss, Spartans, Late Republic Romans, EIR Romans, and can you believe it Samurai. 800 points
28mm: Late Republic Romans 650 points
28mm: Samurai 800 points
28mm: Late Republic Romans 650 points
28mm: Samurai 800 points
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Billpete002
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I second this, while I wouldn't play with a paper army in a tourney or such it is great for new players to see what army/time period they like best BEFORE getting the models!
I know how scared I would be if I wanted to start playing this with no background in gaming. While the rules to me are simple, I remember when I was 13 (and sometimes even now at 24!) how confusing some rules in games can be or armies. I think FoG has made amazing rules, but there are SO many lists to choose from and if a group of people at a local store wanna test out a time period before settling down with it that spending $100+ on an army and spending weeks painting it without trying out the rules/time periods is a little daft.
If FoG wanted to bring in newbies and get them hooked on their models free paper cut outs are the way to go - yes there are tons of companies that do this already - but you want to market to some kids who are looking at a new game and why not make it a 1 stop shop? buy the rulebook print out some romans/celts play a game buy the next book - print out x and x play a game or two etc.
1 idea is a code in each book that allows a person to download 2 (or more) armies of their choice.
I know how scared I would be if I wanted to start playing this with no background in gaming. While the rules to me are simple, I remember when I was 13 (and sometimes even now at 24!) how confusing some rules in games can be or armies. I think FoG has made amazing rules, but there are SO many lists to choose from and if a group of people at a local store wanna test out a time period before settling down with it that spending $100+ on an army and spending weeks painting it without trying out the rules/time periods is a little daft.
If FoG wanted to bring in newbies and get them hooked on their models free paper cut outs are the way to go - yes there are tons of companies that do this already - but you want to market to some kids who are looking at a new game and why not make it a 1 stop shop? buy the rulebook print out some romans/celts play a game buy the next book - print out x and x play a game or two etc.
1 idea is a code in each book that allows a person to download 2 (or more) armies of their choice.
Something like this could be handled by a marketing team or someone who is in charge of hobby promotion/support rather than part of the game design team. It seemed like the idea of 'quick start' resource was being dismissed out of hand. I'm assuming the company is keeping tabs on the board and might consider adding this to their list of ideas to attract NEW historical gamers.ars_belli wrote:Another point to bear in mind is one of limited resources, in terms of time and manpower. Time and energy expended in one project will necessarily mean time and energy taken from another. I suspect that the priority is currently on finishing the army list books. This is a very wise thing, IMHO.
Or the company could even consider authorizing a fan group to create 'semi-official' resources. Think of the support that some computer game companies provide to the mod/fan community.