Slitherine

IanB3406 wrote:If evading from a flank march can you evade again from a charge? Played a game this weekend and we did it at way as it appears the evade from the fm is before charges are declared. It certainly allowed the Huns to escape....won't be flank marching against a mounted army again!!!

Flank marchers, and any evades they cause, come on in the manouver phase of the active player. So it's more a case of "if you evaded in the impact phase can you evade again from a flank march arrival". It looks from the rules that you can as it it clear that the arrival and evades from it occur later in the FSOP than evades and charges in the impact phase.

grahambriggs wrote:

IanB3406 wrote:Flank marchers, and any evades they cause, come on in the manouver phase of the active player. So it's more a case of "if you evaded in the impact phase can you evade again from a flank march arrival". It looks from the rules that you can as it it clear that the arrival and evades from it occur later in the FSOP than evades and charges in the impact phase.

OK, so another example that contradicts the simplistic of "precisely follow the Full Turn Sequence" diktat.

The FTS only allows for evades to be done in the Impact Phase. There is currently no allowance in the FTS to make evade moves in the manouevre phase - it should be amended for V2. There is room to add "make evade moves from outflanking arrivals".

zoltan wrote:OK, so another example that contradicts the simplistic of "precisely follow the Full Turn Sequence" diktat.

The FTS only allows for evades to be done in the Impact Phase. There is currently no allowance in the FTS to make evade moves in the manouevre phase - it should be amended for V2. There is room to add "make evade moves from outflanking arrivals".

Wait a second. IMO the rules are clear if your read the flank marching section. Perfectly clear.

I must once again stand against you and your lynch mob.

hazelbark wrote:

zoltan wrote:OK, so another example that contradicts the simplistic of "precisely follow the Full Turn Sequence" diktat.

The FTS only allows for evades to be done in the Impact Phase. There is currently no allowance in the FTS to make evade moves in the manouevre phase - it should be amended for V2. There is room to add "make evade moves from outflanking arrivals".

Wait a second. IMO the rules are clear if your read the flank marching section. Perfectly clear.

I must once again stand against you and your lynch mob.

We checked the FSOP for the Maneuver phase to see if it mentioned evading from Flank Marchers and it wasn't there... I think that is all he is saying is that it could be added. The rules on FM were also not crystal clear - at least to us - as to when the evade happened. We decicded correctly it was in the Maneuver phase, but I didn't see that spelled out any where.

They also don't define 'Point of Arrival' anywhere I could find. Is this anywhere a FM BG is enterting the board? Is it the whole footprint of arriving units? The centerpoint? Is it measured from the board edge or where those units finish their moves?

imanfasil wrote:We checked the FSOP for the Maneuver phase to see if it mentioned evading from Flank Marchers and it wasn't there... I think that is all he is saying is that it could be added. The rules on FM were also not crystal clear - at least to us - as to when the evade happened. We decicded correctly it was in the Maneuver phase, but I didn't see that spelled out any where.

They also don't define 'Point of Arrival' anywhere I could find. Is this anywhere a FM BG is enterting the board? Is it the whole footprint of arriving units? The centerpoint? Is it measured from the board edge or where those units finish their moves?

I am all in favor of more clarity. But *************************.

Page 144 right column last bullet and page 145 left column, 3rd bullet, 4th dash.

I agree the FM rules may not be deeply integrated, but they are all in one place and are clear.

Really? Point of arrival is hard to understand?

hazelbark wrote:

zoltan wrote:The FTS only allows for evades to be done in the Impact Phase. There is currently no allowance in the FTS to make evade moves in the manouevre phase - it should be amended for V2. There is room to add "make evade moves from outflanking arrivals".

Wait a second. IMO the rules are clear if your read the flank marching section. Perfectly clear.

I must once again stand against you and your lynch mob.

The FTS appears to say you do ALL evades in the Impact Phase; the outflanking rules imply this is not true, or at least are in tension with that.

We have been debating (in relation to evades that are responses to declared charges) whether this means first do all evades and then do all charges, or do each combination of evade/charge in turn (at the phasing player's choice).

The point was then raised about evades that are a response to an outflanking march. Page 145 says troops within 6MUs of the arrival point of an outflanking march...... must evade. The point of arrival is not known until the outflanker's move on table in the Manouevre Phase. By that time, we have gone past the Impact Phase (when ALL evades must be made).

We have also previously debated the situation where (within the Impact Phase) some fresh evades can occur AFTER a particular charge move has been made. Again, this appears to be a situation where and evade is required to be made after we have moved past the evade point in the FTS.

I was simply making the point that there are several exceptions to the general rule that ALL evades must be made (according to the FTS) at a single, specific point in the Impact Phase. For clarity, it would be helpful in V2 to add an explicit provision in the FTS Manoeuvre Phase for evades from outflanking marchers to occur. Either that or acknowledge that there are exceptions to the general rule that we proceed through the FTS line by line only once per game turn, with some necessary looping back.

Sorry to have to contradict Zoltan.

The full turn sequence does not say that you make ALL evade moves in the impact phase. It says, in the impact section 'make evade moves'.

I see your point though. The rules are clear that the arriving troops come on in the manouver phase, but don't specifically say that the evaders move then. The phrasing could do with tightening up. I'll add that to the list of things to tighten in v2

grahambriggs wrote:Sorry to have to contradict Zoltan.

The full turn sequence does not say that you make ALL evade moves in the impact phase. It says, in the impact section 'make evade moves'.

I see your point though. The rules are clear that the arriving troops come on in the manouver phase, but don't specifically say that the evaders move then. The phrasing could do with tightening up. I'll add that to the list of things to tighten in v2

There is only one place in the FTS that specifies when evades may be made. It is in the Impact Phase. Because we are told to follow the FTS religiously line by line, ipso facto evades can not be done at any other time in any other phase. The outflanking rule appears to contradict this. So fix it, dear Liza, fix it!

zoltan wrote:

grahambriggs wrote:Sorry to have to contradict Zoltan.

The full turn sequence does not say that you make ALL evade moves in the impact phase. It says, in the impact section 'make evade moves'.

I see your point though. The rules are clear that the arriving troops come on in the manouver phase, but don't specifically say that the evaders move then. The phrasing could do with tightening up. I'll add that to the list of things to tighten in v2

There is only one place in the FTS that specifies when evades may be made. It is in the Impact Phase. Because we are told to follow the FTS religiously line by line, ipso facto evades can not be done at any other time in any other phase. The outflanking rule appears to contradict this. So fix it, dear Liza, fix it!

I have raised it in the "tidying up the wording" forum section for v2. It would also be useful (if authors are reading this) to cover in the v1 FAQ.

There is further support for your position in the "Turns and Phases" section; that says "The active player moves any of his troops that did not move in the impact phase." Does not mention the non active player.

zoltan wrote:OK, so another example that contradicts the simplistic of "precisely follow the Full Turn Sequence" diktat.

I think you are being pedantic too be difficult my friend.

Where in the turn sequence does it say a player may breath?
Where in the turn sequence does it say i pick up the dice to roll them? Don't they roll on their own?

hazelbark wrote:

zoltan wrote:OK, so another example that contradicts the simplistic of "precisely follow the Full Turn Sequence" diktat.

I think you are being pedantic too be difficult my friend.

Where in the turn sequence does it say a player may breath?
Where in the turn sequence does it say i pick up the dice to roll them? Don't they roll on their own?

However Dan, he does have a point when you look at the Turns and Phases section. It only says "The active player moves any of his troops that did not move in the impact phase." so it's quite reasonable to assume that the enemy troops don't react until the impact phase given the way it is written.

I may see one of the authors this week so I'll suggest they might like to give us some clarity.

grahambriggs wrote:I may see one of the authors this week so I'll suggest they might like to give us some clarity.

I just discovered this archive footage of author meetings to show how productive they are

Author Meeting

I think its Graham when he was younger, Simon's the angry one and Nik gets caught up in the argument

hazelbark wrote:

zoltan wrote:OK, so another example that contradicts the simplistic of "precisely follow the Full Turn Sequence" diktat.

I think you are being pedantic too be difficult my friend.

Where in the turn sequence does it say a player may breath?
Where in the turn sequence does it say i pick up the dice to roll them? Don't they roll on their own?

Heck, I don't give a rat's arse about this Someone else raised it and I had time on my hands between rugby games!

You can evade in every phase of the game to my knowledge. It is specified in the rules that you can as well.

Rules come before the FTS.

dave_r wrote:You can evade in every phase of the game to my knowledge. It is specified in the rules that you can as well.

Page reference please?

p. 108 right hand column 3rd bullet

Thanks, page references help a lot.

berthier wrote:p. 108 right hand column 3rd bullet

Yep that's great. Not nearly as broad as DR's comment implied.

So:
1. you evade from a declared charge only in the Impact Phase at a point explicitly defined in the Full Turn Sequence
2. you evade from an outflanking march only in the Manoeuvre Phase
3. you can evade from a pursuit in any phase
4. you can evade only in the Manoeuvre Phase (pp 75-76) when someone in side edge to side edge or corner to corner contact shifts or turns 90 to create a melee with a target that is evade capable.

Morale of the story? The statement "Make evade moves" in the Impact Phase of the Full Turn Sequence refers only to case 1 - evades made from a declared charge. Players must use their judgement (or umpires) to decide precisely when to make evades in cases 2 (outflanking march), 3 (pursuit) and 4 (turning/shifting enemy).

Everyone's a winner!

Don't forget evading in the manevuer phase (pp 75-76) when someone in side edge to side edge or corner to corner contact shifts or turns 90 to create a melee with a target that is evade capable.

imanfasil wrote:Don't forget evading in the manevuer phase (pp 75-76) when someone in side edge to side edge or corner to corner contact shifts or turns 90 to create a melee with a target that is evade capable.

Yeah, just thought of that!