Page 2 of 2
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:28 pm
by Blathergut
So will the powers that be correct the Ord. Burgundian SoA list and make the unprotected Mixed BG protected please!
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:35 pm
by rbodleyscott
Blathergut wrote:So will the powers that be correct the Ord. Burgundian SoA list and make the unprotected Mixed BG protected please!
As this thread is getting rather long, you might try posting this in a thread of its own to ensure that the powers that be see it. It isn't the first time the bug has been mentioned.
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:46 pm
by TheGrayMouser
rbodleyscott wrote:TheGrayMouser wrote:rbodleyscott wrote:
The point being that a mixed unit does not get full effect from the DSp or the Bow/Xbow, because only half of the men have each.
This is throwing this slightly off topic, but then what is the justification for units such as longbowmen who have swords getting full effects for both when they get charged into? (or have full effect of the sword if they themselves initiate impact)
They don't. Swordsmen capability only counts in Melee, not at Impact. They don't get a POA for the rear rank shooters, only extra dice.
Also the lights spear/ archer units ie immortals
They get an impact POA for the light spear and extra dice for the rear rank shooters. In the TT game the rear rank dice are usually at a lower POA but I guess they did not implement this in the PC version - it does make them marginally more effective than in the TT game.
The logic of the system is that at impact only the front ranks normally take part, so only their weapons count for the impact POAs. However, rear rank archers do have an additional effect, so the BG gets extra dices compared with a unit without archers. (But only if the unit is being charged, not if it initiates the charge itself.)
Offensive or Defensive Spearmen are something of an exception, because they rely on deep formations for their effect, so lose their POA if they don't have enough ranks with spear. (However, it is still only the front rank who actually fight at impact).
I guess the answer is in the bases as used in the TT, however makes less sense in the PC game as there are no bases .....
It does not make any less sense. The unit is not a solid blob, it represents a certain number of ranks of men - so do the bases in the TT version. The same thing is being represented in both cases, and the internal mechanisms are (almost) the same.
Hey thanks for the answer, i dont have the advantage of having the rules in front of me so was trying to intuitively figure it out, basically in that context i could not grasp the difference of a mixed battle goup with a spear in the front rank and rear rank archers vs a unit that is NOT a mixed unit but has a spear as its impact/melee weapon and a bow in its missle weapon slot.....
I almost feel they would be the same "unit" for all intents and purposes, unless the assumption is non mixed units is that they fire point blank fire and then immedietly switch over to the sidearm AT impact.....
edit Im am not certain but maybe there are no NON mixed units that have a spear / missle weapon, only light spear or sword....
Cheers!
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:55 pm
by rbodleyscott
TheGrayMouser wrote:in that context i could not grasp the difference of a mixed battle goup with a spear in the front rank and rear rank archers vs a unit that is NOT a mixed unit but has a spear as its impact/melee weapon and a bow in its missle weapon slot.....
I almost feel they would be the same "unit" for all intents and purposes
Unmixed units of spearmen with bow capability do not exist. (Light spear is different).
unless the assumption is non mixed units is that they fire point blank fire and then immedietly switch over to the sidearm AT impact.....
The front ranks don't shoot at all in the impact phase, only the rear ranks.
I think the problem is that you are still thinking of them behaving as if they were 1 rank deep (or all ranks doing the same thing) when most infantry are in fact 8 ranks deep (16 ranks for pikes) and the different ranks are doing different things.
One suggested reconstruction of the Early Achaemenid Persian sparabara formation consists of 2 ranks with spear and pavise, 2 more ranks with bow and spear (but no shield) and then 6 more ranks with bow and sagaris (single handed hand axe).
This formation was effective until the enemy broke through the wall of pavises, but then no match for Greek hoplites in close combat thereafter. We simulate this by making them pretty effective at impact (if stationary), but not much cop in melee.
Note that the exact details of how we achieve this are unimportant - FOG is a top-down set of rules (even though some of the mechanisms may appear otherwise) and it is the overall effect between historical opponents that we aim to achieve - it doesn't much matter how it is achieved.
Problem with list
Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:33 am
by ericdoman1
Hi there
My mistake before. In the Skythian list, IF. You can have Black SEa Sarmatian allies, unfortunately you can only choose 2 BGS. I have tried numerous combos and that is it. Graeco Bactrian list the Mountain Indian allies spearmen are armed with offensive spear. In the Skythian list, as allies they are only armed with light spear.
Posted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:49 am
by keithmartinsmith
My mistake before. In the Skythian list, IF. You can have Black SEa Sarmatian allies, unfortunately you can only choose 2 BGS. I have tried numerous combos and that is it ....
The Skythians in IF get Black Sea Greek Allies, there was an error on the max battlegroups and that is fixed in version 132.
They should not get Mountain Indian Allies and these have been removed for 132.
The Graeco Bacrian Mountain Indians now only get light spear in 132.
Keith