Slitherine

Interesting discussion.

Does "slow play" include both defensive play and timing out games? Or just timing out games?

Both.
The competition is structured so that defensive play can be advantageous which makes for games to be less enjoyable and can have an odd effect on the overall team result (in the knock out stage). Legitimate but not great for the event.
Deliberately timing out is I hope very rare but a team winning through by one of their players employing (or appearing to employ) this tactic is going to create some ill feeling. Not legitimate and bad for the event.

One simple way of solving it for the involved players is the following: if there's a three-week period to complete a game, then just play 1 turn, occasionally maximum 2 turns, per player and day (instead of frantically concluding a game in the first few days or week). Then the situation and result in one game can't be readily exploited in the other games.

This is far too subtle to be practicable. There are around 17 days per round in the knock out stages. Up to 24 moves to get done and also maybe a couple of rerolls. Maybe the occasion day when one or either player can't play. Are they going to agree on which days they are going to play 2 turns and which days 1 turn, and both adjust this according to how the game is going if it is likely to be finished in less than 24 moves ?
Just go for playing two turns every day from the start and accept that the result will be posted early. If one player is winning the rest of the team have likely been informed about it anyway.

Finally the WTC is the only team tournament being played to my knowledge and it allows you to represent your country (for the majority of us this would never happen) and that is what makes it unique

Very much agree, the team element adds to the game which is why I hope there is a WTC3 and more.

tyronec wrote: ↑Sun Nov 19, 2023 6:48 am This is far too subtle to be practicable. There are around 17 days per round in the knock out stages. Up to 24 moves to get done and also maybe a couple of rerolls. Maybe the occasion day when one or either player can't play. Are they going to agree on which days they are going to play 2 turns and which days 1 turn, and both adjust this according to how the game is going if it is likely to be finished in less than 24 moves ?
Just go for playing two turns every day from the start and accept that the result will be posted early. If one player is winning the rest of the team have likely been informed about it anyway.

On the contrary: it’s both subtle and practicable. It doesn’t have be imposed as a rule but as a recommendation in order to complete a game on time but not too early if you’re afraid of slow play in parallel games.

Players don’t really need to agree whether to play 1 or 2 turns (you could finetune that yourself at your end whether you want to put in an extra turn or not) but as always it’s good if players communicate with each other when they’re available to play and when they are not.

And basically our suggestions don’t differ very much: you suggest 2 turns and I 1-2, i.e., both suggestions involve a slow (in a good sense) and steady play from the start.

1. The main cause I believe is that it is a team event so if one or two players have done well, why do the other team members need to attack? Therefore the use of a Swiss system or below would be needed. In one TT comp, I played a while back, it was a team event and the Swiss system was used but only for players. You would then have a 1st to 3rd individual and a 1st to 3rd team?

2. As a few of us knows. If we were able to use the Slitherine tournament system to time players this would be a huge assist. We have been told that it would not work BUT we have not been able to try ourselves? I am sure that somebody would be able to figure out how to customize it.

3. Preventing players who have not completed games on time, to enter. I will go through all games and include these on a separate topic. I would give each 2 chances first but on the 3rd occasion they will be banned from entering WTC, indefinitely. Similarly where players have attempted to persuade the organisers to "give them" the game but have not gone through the proper method of doing so.

4. Based on above posts. Players now need to report on another player who has not played say X turns per X days. We tried to remedy it by using the 2 day and 4 day rule. This proved very effective in group stage but not in QF stage. So maybe for KO stages it should be the 1 day and 2 day rule?

5. I think then that if adjudications are to be made, they have to be agreed upon, in writing and they should be severe. That is a 40 - 0 loss or the team is disqualified

6. Once more, the feedback I had from 2 of the games that were not completed for WTC 2023, based on the scores and number of turns left wouldn't have made any difference to the qualifiers. I am not sure about the previous WTC 2021 though. So these discussions are OK but not exactly vital. If a dozen or more players were involved then we would have to really think about changes.

I think Swiss system on a team basis could also work.

Each team is ranked by cumulative score (calculated in a similar way as the group stage this time; though I prefer the HOML scoring where only the winning side's routing percentage is considered) and each round 1st team plays against 2nd team, 3rd v. 4th etc. This would indeed encourage each player to maximize their scores even if teammates are winning this round, since the extra score would also determine their team's rank (they may advance multiple ranks if they are performing extra well) and also get carried over in future rounds.

One issue is that it would take too long since you need every player to finish one game before entering into the each round. So maybe resolve more games by having mini-groups based on Swiss system each round. E.g.: each round teams are ranked by cumulative score and first 4 teams are in the same group and fight each other; 5th to 8th teams are in the same group and fight each other. The score results are added to their existing cumulative score for determining the rank of the next round.

W/r/t adjudications, I think the goal is to punish and deter failures of finishing the game and on the other hand not awarding the non-defaulting side too much.

A 40-0 result would serve the first part well but may award the non-defaulting side too much that they are gaining an unfair advantage as compared to other teams who played normal games. A 40-15 result is more reasonable for the non-defaulting side but less harsh on the defaulting side.

So why not:

(a) the defaulting side is getting 0 score as if it is lost 40-0, or even get a minus score as a punishment; and

(b) the non-defaulting side is getting the score as if it is winning 40-15.

LuciusSulla wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:00 am I think Swiss system on a team basis could also work.

Each team is ranked by cumulative score (calculated in a similar way as the group stage this time; though I prefer the HOML scoring where only the winning side's routing percentage is considered) and each round 1st team plays against 2nd team, 3rd v. 4th etc. This would indeed encourage each player to maximize their scores even if teammates are winning this round, since the extra score would also determine their team's rank (they may advance multiple ranks if they are performing extra well) and also get carried over in future rounds.

One issue is that it would take too long since you need every player to finish one game before entering into the each round. So maybe resolve more games by having mini-groups based on Swiss system each round. E.g.: each round teams are ranked by cumulative score and first 4 teams are in the same group and fight each other; 5th to 8th teams are in the same group and fight each other. The score results are added to their existing cumulative score for determining the rank of the next round.

A tournament calendar had been agreed upon to allow 2 x HOML (16 weeks), 2 x TDC (24 to 26weeks) and 1 x WTC (14 weeks) tournaments to fit into one year, with a few days where tournaments would overlap. This is probably a fixed schedule now.

I think a Swiss styled tournament is the way to go. Possibly 5 rounds/matches of 18.5 days each. Slitherine tournaments have 10 matches in 10 weeks, HOML has 8 to 24 matches played in 8 weeks and TDC has 7 to 48 matches in 12 weeks. On average WTC gives players more time to complete their games. Hopefully the Slitherine automated system may also be customized so that the WTC can use it. This will help with adjudications.

The adjudication system we had in place for the group stage, worked very well. This will be used again for the next WTC and may well be used for KO stages, if they are preferred

As for scoring. I would not agree on the use of HOML. The reason is that the difference in scores can be huge and could lead to a team being untouchable in the final round. So I would use the Slitherine scoring system OR instead of the "+ 60", maybe something less, for example + 40. This could then lead to more exciting finishes

ericdoman1 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 9:27 am

LuciusSulla wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:00 am I think Swiss system on a team basis could also work.

Each team is ranked by cumulative score (calculated in a similar way as the group stage this time; though I prefer the HOML scoring where only the winning side's routing percentage is considered) and each round 1st team plays against 2nd team, 3rd v. 4th etc. This would indeed encourage each player to maximize their scores even if teammates are winning this round, since the extra score would also determine their team's rank (they may advance multiple ranks if they are performing extra well) and also get carried over in future rounds.

One issue is that it would take too long since you need every player to finish one game before entering into the each round. So maybe resolve more games by having mini-groups based on Swiss system each round. E.g.: each round teams are ranked by cumulative score and first 4 teams are in the same group and fight each other; 5th to 8th teams are in the same group and fight each other. The score results are added to their existing cumulative score for determining the rank of the next round.

A tournament calendar had been agreed upon to allow 2 x HOML (16 weeks), 2 x TDC (24 to 26weeks) and 1 x WTC (14 weeks) tournaments to fit into one year, with a few days where tournaments would overlap. This is probably a fixed schedule now.

I think a Swiss styled tournament is the way to go. Possibly 5 rounds/matches of 18.5 days each. Slitherine tournaments have 10 matches in 10 weeks, HOML has 8 to 24 matches played in 8 weeks and TDC has 7 to 48 matches in 12 weeks. On average WTC gives players more time to complete their games. Hopefully the Slitherine automated system may also be customized so that the WTC can use it. This will help with adjudications.

The adjudication system we had in place for the group stage, worked very well. This will be used again for the next WTC and may well be used for KO stages, if they are preferred

As for scoring. I would not agree on the use of HOML. The reason is that the difference in scores can be huge and could lead to a team being untouchable in the final round. So I would use the Slitherine scoring system OR instead of the "+ 60", maybe something less, for example + 40. This could then lead to more exciting finishes

Makes sense. The only issue I'm thinking of is that HOML scoring with a +40 could result in a draw of 59-59 granting more points than a narrow win. +60 is the minimum to make it even.

I don't really like the official tournament scoring since a 40-15 win is vastly different than a 65-40 win. And the score greatly depends on how many routs you could compress into the last turn that crosses the 25% threshold, which doesn't make sense.

I think a Swiss styled tournament is the way to go. Possibly 5 rounds/matches of 18.5 days each. Slitherine tournaments have 10 matches in 10 weeks, HOML has 8 to 24 matches played in 8 weeks and TDC has 7 to 48 matches in 12 weeks. On average WTC gives players more time to complete their games. Hopefully the Slitherine automated system may also be customized so that the WTC can use it. This will help with adjudications.

The significant aspect of the timing is that the HOML allows 8 weeks and the TDC 12 weeks to complete each game, with 18.5 days for each game there will be time outs. However with a Swiss competition using a Slitherine style scoring at least the motivation is there for both players to complete games (except possibly in the last round if one team is well ahead) so much preferable to the knock format. Also I think more interest for the teams because there are going to be many more close matches throughout the tournament and more interest for all teams until the end.
I see little likelihood of the Slitherine automated system becoming available to us but great if it did. There might be more prospect of asking Slitherine to run a teams competition where players enter as a team of 4

As for scoring. I would not agree on the use of HOML. The reason is that the difference in scores can be huge and could lead to a team being untouchable in the final round. So I would use the Slitherine scoring system OR instead of the "+ 60", maybe something less, for example + 40. This could then lead to more exciting finishes

I think the HOML system is preferable to the Slitherine one, it benefits the player who wins their game with minimum losses while the Slitherine one benefits the winning player who manages their last turn to cause as many extra routs as possible. This can lead to players extending the game by a turn or two in the hope of gaining a higher score, which is fine if you have the Slitherine automated system but wouldn't be so good in the WTC if the opponent didn't play out their last turn !
I had a look at the scores from the quarter finals and semis of this WTC. Some games there was around 20 points extra if using the HOML scoring, most games would have had similar scores, a few the winner would score less using HOML.

Hi All

We are very proud to announce the third WTC, WTC 2024.

End of entries, armies and logos would be 8th September and start date is 10th September

At first please post your username and country, if you wish to participate.

To help us out, if you are playing in any tournaments, could you please mention WTC 2024 to your opponent and how he can enter.

We have included something new for WTC 2024 and that is team captains will send their team name, captains name, players, armies and periods via private message to

Eric - UK (3), China (3), Australia (1), Canada (1)

Angus - USA (3), NZ (1), Italy (2), France (2), Poland (1)

The (1) - indicates, at present, the maximum number of teams allowed for each nation.

Ander will be organising Spain (1), ROTW, Europe, Asia and Americas.

Please send in team names by private message etc as:-

Team Name - Forlorn Hope (Australia)

Period 1 - Mr White - Mitanni
Period 2 - Mr Pink (Captain) - Ancient Briton
Period 3 - Mr Black - Illyrian
Period 4 - Mr Brown - Alan

Cheers

Mike, Angus, Ander and Eric

OK, here's the information for USA Team 2

Hell on Wheels.

Our Motto: "Mayhem In Motion"

Members Confirmed for 2024
Karvon - Captain
Aetius39
batesmotel
olddog52

Regards,

Karvon

Excellent Mark

Hi Guys

I'm happy to play representing UK if selected. Any ideas of the projected timescales? I am away on holiday end of September so would be unable to play during that period.

Hi Ian

See private messages

Cheers

Eric

Hi Eric
I am hoping to be able to play, either ROW or UK
Thanks
Simon

Hi Simon

Thanks for entering. Who knows the UK may be a possibility.

Cheers

Eric

Eric

Would love to play. Morat: UK.

M.

Thanks very much

I am in

happy to play for the uk team

Thanks very much Keith