Bugger. Just wrote a lengthy and incredibly interesting post about the 'high score' vs 'gameplay' dichotomy which has disappeared.
Sadface! I hate when this happens... I hope that you'll find the strength to rewrite that, it's an interesting topic for sure!
I never used NCOs since roughly 2005, mostly for the very reason you wrote. I want my units to not get hurt, and with enough armour, tactics, and pin cushions, they can stay out of harm's way... mostly.One question, though: do officers significantly help in terms of ordering units around? 7/8 units is about my limit in terms of order point regeneration. I've no interest in improving 'morale' - if an auxilia unit wants to break it's usually for a reason and I'd rather they didn't fight to the last man when archers have the situation under control. Not sure I've ever bought so much as an NCO. Have no idea how you'd keep 12+ units under control (although it's obviously far simply if half of them are a static block of archers).
I think that I'll rerun the game on weekend.Will try again in the next couple of weeks. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all!
Yeah, when you get too focused on points the game loses some fun. If you’re using no-heal pincushions there are survival battles where you can just run your legate around the screen for a bit. But at battles like Asculum and Sambre River you’ve *got* to go for the win rather than just meet the winning conditions, right?!Aleksandr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 2:45 pm Ok, so I just finished another run and this will be my absolute personal best for the rest of eternity. I am totally burnt out and I need a year or two off. Morevoer, this last effort felt very much like cheating, as I used every dirty trick that I know about, and I also replayed many scenarios for the best result. It took me about twice the normal time, and sometimes it was not exactly a pleasure.
I give Drill to my Aux Cav asap, so that I may trample the routed much more effectively, than Adv. Drill some time after Frenzy. I give Drill to Auxilia around the time when the gold flow allows an army expansion to roughly eight units, because it's a bit hard to manage them with only Legate's skill. But I don't give them Adv. Drill ever, because in the later stages the Legate is skilled enough to control ten to twelve units, and by the time I got 15+ units, the Archers happen to help. I max the Drill for them, and when there are eight to ten Master Drill bowmen in my army, order points are the least of my trouble.moj wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 7:48 pm Happy New Year!
From pre-Christmas posts, re officers…tried them in a ‘bash game’ and wasn’t excited. I feel that officers should improve order-ability as well as morale; separate skill paths for order points and morale seems unnecessary. With my limited number of units I’ll buy ‘disciplined formation’ for the auxiliaries and managed to scramble through.
Well, I'm not exactly sure that I'm exactly right, but I think that the unit's breaking point has a lot to do with what happened already. I believe that routed friendly units affect morale of the particular unit that is thus vulnerable to break much sooner. But I may be mistaken, it needs to be confirmed by Slitherine guys.Morale is an ill-defined quality and the squad stats bar seems to lie! Don’t know what factors determine a unit’s breaking point: sometimes a unit will ‘dig in’ far deeper than expected, sometimes they’re shaken in moments. Also have absolutely no idea what the skirmish skill means for archers. The -50 morale point hit (because ‘they don’t like it’) isn’t reflected on the stats bar, and archers with the skill don’t seem to break in seconds of (rare) contact. If they did, then the skirmish skill would be a real negative.
I'm going to start a new run in next half an hour or so, and this time I'll try to play it in a more relaxed way. I'm interested in a more balanced core than the extreme one that I used the last time, because 12 Archers are exactly that, an extreme. I had battles where the enemy ran before the first contact, but I had battles where it took fifteen tries to not lose.Yeah, when you get too focused on points the game loses some fun. If you’re using no-heal pincushions there are survival battles where you can just run your legate around the screen for a bit. But at battles like Asculum and Sambre River you’ve *got* to go for the win rather than just meet the winning conditions, right?!
Yep, exactly! Towards the end of the campaign, or rather somewhere in the middle, the game was a real horror. I didn't have enough h2h guys, my bowmen horde still sucked, and my gold was too low to purchase a unit of Pretty pincushions to save me. It was a strange experience, definitely not the most fun I ever had.In my games since Christmas I’ve increasingly found myself looking at the score the whole time, doing far more ‘first fifteen second resets’ when it’s obvious that my set-up isn’t quite right, and more retreats towards the end of battles when it’s apparent that I’m heading for a lot of heals. And getting upset when a unit takes a late fourth casualty and trips into ‘requires healing’. It does take the shine off, to some degree. 1,147k is a fantastic score, but I can imagine it wasn’t a barrel of laughs getting there!
Nice one! But in the name of all that is holy... use ten units, man!So... have now completed 17 ‘logged’ games, with #17 being a new high score...
Can you at least imagine how this hurts my ocd? Nice work! I'm far too lazy for such analytical work, and that's the reason why I lack a lot of insight. I just go with a gut feeling most of the time, but it's also about pure memory. I think that a proper test of my skills would be Britannicus campaign, but alas, it's lost in time...snip
I’m currently lacking the enthusiasm/skill to properly play with my scores in Excel. But here are my average heal points over the course of the 17 battles:
snip
Yeah, this is spot on. I may try a no pincushion run on weekend, or at least something more manly than what I tried the last time. It was fun, at least most of the time, but when it wasn't fun, it wasn't fun in a really really annoying way.A no pincushion 1445k is certainly possible with 'my' army, but the number of RETREATS!!! needed to get there would veer too far into 'cheating'. It's a shame there isn't some sort of iron-man mode, where you *can* restart a game but each time you do so it costs you 1% of the battle's fame/XP. So that’s it. Taking some time off to try and re-enter the real world!
'Yes, breaking point appears to be at least partially 'situational'. That front-most aux infantry standing knee deep in water at Noreia is just itching to run. I think there's also a resistance to being told to stay put: if you pull even the most experienced/skilled unit back into the woods 2-3 times when it wants to rush out into the open it'll be shaken after just 10-12 casualties.Aleksandr wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:41 pmWell, I'm not exactly sure that I'm exactly right, but I think that the unit's breaking point has a lot to do with what happened already. I believe that routed friendly units affect morale of the particular unit that is thus vulnerable to break much sooner. But I may be mistaken, it needs to be confirmed by Slitherine guys.
Aleksandr wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:41 pmTowards the end of the campaign, or rather somewhere in the middle, the game was a real horror. I didn't have enough h2h guys, my bowmen horde still sucked, and my gold was too low to purchase a unit of Pretty pincushions to save me. It was a strange experience, definitely not the most fun I ever had.
You're my man!
Ha, this could explain some of the weird results that I had in the past, but unfortunately I wasn't paying attention to the particular unit's behaviour, so I cannot confirm anything.Yes, breaking point appears to be at least partially 'situational'. That front-most aux infantry standing knee deep in water at Noreia is just itching to run. I think there's also a resistance to being told to stay put: if you pull even the most experienced/skilled unit back into the woods 2-3 times when it wants to rush out into the open it'll be shaken after just 10-12 casualties.
Nah... never.The other great mystery is: does agility have any impact whatsoever? Have you ever thought 'oooh, I wish I'd spent more on boots'?!
Oops, you did it again!I decided to share your pain...
Much like yourself, it’ll be a long time until I think of trying it again!
Wow, this is such a nice result! And you lost only nine horsemen? That's spectacular! I use them really carefully, but I doubt that I was below thirty deaths on my best run. Gotta check that.Compared to my previous high score of 1,144.8k the aux inf and cav were all one level lower, and the archers 1–2 levels higher. But I still failed in my quest for megabows: got my first and only megabow in time for Munda.
The difference in casualties is huge: 1310 in the previous best, 824 in this game. Lost six archers and nine cavalrymen across the entire campaign, incurring a total of 60 heal points.
Yeah, I really dont get this. Either someone "leached" the experiences (but who, Legate?), or maybe the enemy did run after a few salvos? It seems like the bowmen are really good at routing the opposing units, but then again it could be just a false perception, as it's much easier to note the damage done by archers (a big cloud of numbers with few arrows mixed in) then trying to make any sense of what the h2h guys deal.Number of deaths dealt was slightly up at 18,582 vs 18,565, which surprised me: given the unit levels my archers were more effective than before and my aux inf less effective, and archers generally break enemy units without ‘superfluous’ kills. Also, although I still went out to win the winnable battles, I was fairly conservative at Crossing The Alps and I won Thapsus very efficiently (all four archers straight onto the ‘general’, which is the unit on the extreme right, for just two casualties).
That's sick... O_OMy absolute highlight was Alesia: not so much because of the casualties I sustained but because of my aux inf’s score:
Yeah, I hate that. It's the enemy general, he's got insane ZOC and he always drags some unit acros 1/4 of the map. Speaking of elephants, it looks like Velites with Adv-Exp antiEle are kinda solid. At least I don't remember any trouble with dumbos.A single archer unit which *always* decides to skirmish halfway through End of the Dream... Bastard elephants still fighting at 2/8
I thought the same, but I'm going to start another run soon, maybe right this evening.Yep. That’s me done for several months!
Hadn’t considered that units get more ‘twitchy’ as they progress, but it sounds very possible. At Alesia and Munda (which are basically the same battle) I have real problems keeping my aux inf in the woods: once they’ve killed the charging unit/general they remain ‘engaged’ even though the next enemy are still a fair distance away.
Oooh yes, it would be great to be ‘know’ how 3-4 levels of ‘stand firm’ compares to 3-4 levels of ‘anti-cav’, or how ‘anti-specialism’ matches up to ‘swordsmanship’. I guess you could run two separate games simultaneously and alternate battles, but I just *know* I’d overwrite the wrong savefile.Idk, (agility is) such a strange ability, maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't. I wish that there was some kind of sandbox scenario to try all this stuff.
Yep. Two at Pydna in taking out those nasty archers and the light infantry that step in to help them, and four at Mulhouse which was probably unnecessary - those archers are down to one or two volleys by the time I’ve reached them, so it’s cheaper to take the ‘hit’ with 5pt auxillia. My usual horsey death toll seems to be 20-25, although attempt #12 had a grand total of seven cavalry deaths and no heals.Wow, this is such a nice result! And you lost only nine horsemen? That's spectacular! I use them really carefully, but I doubt that I was below thirty deaths on my best run. Gotta check that
I don’t understand it either. My auxilia spend at least 80% of the time in offence formation, but I’m not using them more aggressively. But in early games I was usually hitting 2, 3, occasionally 4 megabows before Philippi. While it’s fun to have that sort of fire power I don’t think it necessarily has a great impact on the score, because they always arrive late in the game.Also, I'm surprised that your archers didn't have the Odd Bow, your auxiliary infantry must have been extremely aggressive.
Ah, the classic ‘You are defeated... kills 292, casualties 0’."breaking without overkill" is pretty annoying during Bibracte: there are not enough enemy soldiers to shoot down, so its pretty easy to lose the scenario as you run out of targets
Don’t units just appear in the order they were added to the battlefield? The preceding battle was Divo, where only one aux infantry is used. The same units/positions carry over to Alesia (because the battlefields are the same size) and when I add the second and third auxilia they occupy the last two positions.Hey, I noticed something interesting, the order of units is different from the final one. Is there a way how to toss the units around? I never found a way to do that.
It seems to be an intermittent ‘problem’ but if it happens once then no amount of restarting/repositioning seems to put enough space between archers and ‘point of impact’. Interesting that you don’t have elephant issues! Even my Achilles-wearing anti-elephant eiltes/masters can get broken in open ground. That said, now I’ve started hiding in the woods for Magnesia – for some reason my previous ‘open a gap for cavalry to hit archers’ tactic has stopped working – I *think* the only battle where I meet elephants in the open is Illipa. And those elephants *can* be dragged into the woods, i’m just not very good at it.(End of the Dream skirmishing archers and unbreaking elephants) Yeah, I hate that. It's the enemy general, he's got insane ZOC and he always drags some unit acros 1/4 of the map. Speaking of elephants, it looks like Velites with Adv-Exp antiEle are kinda solid. At least I don't remember any trouble with dumbos.
Yep, I stopped pincushioning very early in my career as a legate. Slapping peasants all over the field at Vadimo Lake in order to occupy the enemy for another three seconds made me feel like a war criminal.moj, I just realized one thing: your 1 147k run was a no-pincushion game? If that's so, then it's a truly epic result! .
1,129K... back to earth with a bang!I concentrated on ease of play. I tried a bit more "reasonable" build, a bit more realistic army, and it was a weird surprise. But first... the usual picture.
The only heavy infantry I’ve ever persevered with is one or two Praetorian units, but I doubt I could use them again now that I’m so fine-tuned to occupying rough/forest. The ‘lighter’ heavies, as you say, don’t seem any more resilient than auxilia in the open (certainly not twice as resilient in accordance with the 5pt/10pt heal cost). I’m curious: does the triarii’s lack of a throwing weapon make any difference? I never thought that my infantry’s javelins / pila did much damage, and the idea of a unit that engages without pausing appeals to me: makes it easier to ensure you’re fighting on the right ground.I had serious issues during Gauls and Pyrrhus, and the heavy infantry was an absolute disappointment. They totally melted away during Vadimo Lake and even later I didn't really enjoy them. Pretty expensive healing and the Triarii gain experience really slowly.
But contrarily to the 12-archers core, there were far less restarts. This seems like a solid build for an easy walkthrough, but it will never break any record.
Yeah, that's exactly my experience, and these are the very same battles where I always get frustrated.moj wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:43 am Hadn’t considered that units get more ‘twitchy’ as they progress, but it sounds very possible. At Alesia and Munda (which are basically the same battle) I have real problems keeping my aux inf in the woods: once they’ve killed the charging unit/general they remain ‘engaged’ even though the next enemy are still a fair distance away.
I got all 68 pre-battle savegames in a special folder in case something ugly happens, and I may use them for the tests, but the issue is that it's kinda cumbersome: I need to find a solid battle for tests (preferably passive AI, mixed units, etc), with a few battles before the testing one where I would train my newly purchased units. I guess Third Samnites War minicampaign could be usable, and the great cavalry ambush towards the very end of the game could work like an experience chest for light INF hiding in woods.Oooh yes, it would be great to be ‘know’ how 3-4 levels of ‘stand firm’ compares to 3-4 levels of ‘anti-cav’, or how ‘anti-specialism’ matches up to ‘swordsmanship’. I guess you could run two separate games simultaneously and alternate battles, but I just *know* I’d overwrite the wrong savefile.
I just realized that I cannot compare our results, as I always start with Aux Cav, so I lose many many more of them... but even if I would purchase them much more lately, I simply can't use them with such an elegance. And it's absolute unimaginable that you were able to finish the whole campaign without healing a single horsemen, this is an achievement in itself!Yep. Two at Pydna in taking out those nasty archers and the light infantry that step in to help them, and four at Mulhouse which was probably unnecessary - those archers are down to one or two volleys by the time I’ve reached them, so it’s cheaper to take the ‘hit’ with 5pt auxillia. My usual horsey death toll seems to be 20-25, although attempt #12 had a grand total of seven cavalry deaths and no heals.
Yeah, the Odd Bow is not the most necessary item, althoguh it's surely the most funny one. But it still strikes me odd that you didn't get even one. Maybe this has something to do with the opposing units, is it possible that you differed your gameplan and the Auxilias killed the most valuable units? But even then it doesn't solve the mystery, because playing with nine units should provide enough exp. for your archers to have at least one megabow at least post-Philippi.I don’t understand it either. My auxilia spend at least 80% of the time in offence formation, but I’m not using them more aggressively. But in early games I was usually hitting 2, 3, occasionally 4 megabows before Philippi. While it’s fun to have that sort of fire power I don’t think it necessarily has a great impact on the score, because they always arrive late in the game.
It happened to me today... twice.Ah, the classic ‘You are defeated... kills 292, casualties 0’.
True, that's it! Shame, I hoped that you found a way how to organize units.Don’t units just appear in the order they were added to the battlefield? The preceding battle was Divo, where only one aux infantry is used. The same units/positions carry over to Alesia (because the battlefields are the same size) and when I add the second and third auxilia they occupy the last two positions.
I can confirm that no repositioning helps once the ZOC issue happens.It seems to be an intermittent ‘problem’ but if it happens once then no amount of restarting/repositioning seems to put enough space between archers and ‘point of impact’. Interesting that you don’t have elephant issues! Even my Achilles-wearing anti-elephant eiltes/masters can get broken in open ground. That said, now I’ve started hiding in the woods for Magnesia – for some reason my previous ‘open a gap for cavalry to hit archers’ tactic has stopped working – I *think* the only battle where I meet elephants in the open is Illipa. And those elephants *can* be dragged into the woods, i’m just not very good at it.
Yeah, exactly! But that's also a reason why I don't wanna invest into anti-ele: if the result is already a dice roll, why bother at all, I'll just go with the rng result. Not to mention that there are not that many enemy elephants to waste much levels on the anti- skill. Oh, and one more issue: I had a dedicated anti-ele unit back in the day, but soon I realized that this is unreliable, as units get mixed in the mess of the battle and/or one unit is not enough.The issue with elephants is that outcomes are much more variable than is the case with other units. Sometimes an aux inf unit can defeat them for a couple of losses; sometimes the same unit will be shaken or even broken while the elephants are still at 6/8 or 7/8.
This may be true. I had battles where enemy elephants really fought to the last beast standing (ok, maybe 2/8, but still...), and they surely stood against shaken units.If morale is situational, as I think we’ve decided it is, then I guess if the elephants know they’re fighting a shaken unit then that’s when they themselves will fight right down to 2/8. It’s a double whammy.
sigged...Yep, I stopped pincushioning very early in my career as a legate. Slapping peasants all over the field at Vadimo Lake in order to occupy the enemy for another three seconds made me feel like a war criminal.
yeah...1,129K... back to earth with a bang!
Yes! The heavy infantry definitely doesn't feel like a "double the price, double the fame" unit, and some of them seem quite out of balance, e.g. Legionaries vs. Principes: do you really wanna pay 200 Denarii more to get a slight bonus? I like the Triarii for reasons listed below, but other than that, heavy INF is weird. They pack a solid punch, and they helped in time-limit battles. Otoh, for the price of unupgraded Legs you can have Auxilia with lvl2 weapons, armour, and helmets, and you can start gaining exp much sooner, while enjoying all the boni of light infantry, cheap healing including...The only heavy infantry I’ve ever persevered with is one or two Praetorian units, but I doubt I could use them again now that I’m so fine-tuned to occupying rough/forest. The ‘lighter’ heavies, as you say, don’t seem any more resilient than auxilia in the open (certainly not twice as resilient in accordance with the 5pt/10pt heal cost). I’m curious: does the triarii’s lack of a throwing weapon make any difference? I never thought that my infantry’s javelins / pila did much damage, and the idea of a unit that engages without pausing appeals to me: makes it easier to ensure you’re fighting on the right ground.
I didn't try an Iron Man game in several years. The main reason are those time-limit battles, but also the disengage bug and placement misclicks. When you lose the Etruscan Treachery because you needed five more seconds, or when you lose at Mulhouse because you forget to change the stance of you Aux Cav to Long Hold, or when the "kill enemy leader" is set incorrectly, or when there are not enough enemy soldiers to kill at Bibracte... is it a real loss? But if this isn't a "real" loss, than what IS?Re the ‘easy walkthrough’, when did you last try a lossless game? I’m fairly sure that the only battle my army can actually lose, except on time, is Lingering Gauls. I’ve got the ‘tight’ timed battles – Etruscan Treachery, Adys, Aqua Sextiae –choreographed like ballets. If your initial positioning and orders are accurate, I’m confident that a zero reset/quit/loss campaign is achievable.
It’s a pity there’s no ‘iron man mode’ in the game settings to enforce adherence to the 'rules'!
Have finally managed to find the save game’s location on my Mac. The filenames don’t reflect the name seen in Legion Arena itself (ie ‘Save_40_.dat’ rather than ‘post-Pydna.dat’) but are presumably renamable.Aleksandr wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 9:23 pm
I got all 68 pre-battle savegames in a special folder in case something ugly happens, and I may use them for the tests, but the issue is that it's kinda cumbersome: I need to find a solid battle for tests (preferably passive AI, mixed units, etc), with a few battles before the testing one where I would train my newly purchased units. I guess Third Samnites War minicampaign could be usable, and the great cavalry ambush towards the very end of the game could work like an experience chest for light INF hiding in woods.
I honestly don’t use them much. Auxiliary cavalry seem to progress quite quickly just from being on the battlefield. I buy them before Heraclea but hide them ‘off screen’; then buy L1 weapons/armour and send them searching for the light infantry at Asculum. They then engage skirmishers towards the end of Malventum, spend Messina and Aggreigentum in their stables, then just manage to catch a few skirmishers at Alalia before the kill count is reached.I just realized that I cannot compare our results, as I always start with Aux Cav, so I lose many many more of them... but even if I would purchase them much more lately, I simply can't use them with such an elegance. And it's absolute unimaginable that you were able to finish the whole campaign without healing a single horsemen, this is an achievement in itself!
The megabow really isn’t vital to your score – needs another 5+ battles in the campaign for that – but yes, it’s fun and I miss itYeah, the Odd Bow is not the most necessary item, althoguh it's surely the most funny one. But it still strikes me odd that you didn't get even one. Maybe this has something to do with the opposing units, is it possible that you differed your gameplan and the Auxilias killed the most valuable units? But even then it doesn't solve the mystery, because playing with nine units should provide enough exp. for your archers to have at least one megabow at least post-Philippi. ]
I got tired of being torn apart at Asculum and Malventum. Asculum’s not so bad - the battle ‘times out’ – but at Malventum I had so many experiences of comprehensively winning the imaginary ‘no elephants battle’, then watching several auxilia units, then each ammo-less archer unit in turn, splashing about in the river before being routed by three or four elephants.But that's also a reason why I don't wanna invest into anti-ele: if the result is already a dice roll, why bother at all, I'll just go with the rng result. Not to mention that there are not that many enemy elephants to waste much levels on the anti- skill. Oh, and one more issue: I had a dedicated anti-ele unit back in the day, but soon I realized that this is unreliable, as units get mixed in the mess of the battle and/or one unit is not enough.
You’re welcome!sigged...
As I’m sure I’ve said before, I go down the ‘anti-unit’ path. The weakest auxilia in my most recent game (more below!) finished on L30 with GM1 anti-inf and anti-cav skills. No ‘protection from’, no missile protection, no ‘stand firm’.An anti-cav unit also bleeds men to trample, and it's nearly imppossible to have a "no healing" result with them due to this. The best use of Triarii (and this is also the overall best use of heavy inf in my experience) is a heavy-duty pincushion. But other guys had more success with them, and properly trained and equipped, they can kill endless stream of enemy horsemen.
So... my most recent game...I didn't try an Iron Man game in several years. The main reason are those time-limit battles, but also the disengage bug and placement misclicks. When you lose the Etruscan Treachery because you needed five more seconds, or when you lose at Mulhouse because you forget to change the stance of you Aux Cav to Long Hold, or when the "kill enemy leader" is set incorrectly, or when there are not enough enemy soldiers to kill at Bibracte... is it a real loss? But if this isn't a "real" loss, than what IS?
If I can do it then you can do it!Also, the lack of a true Iron Man mode is what discourages me. I may try this again in the future, but lets be real: I play LA since the first demo back in the Stone Age, and I never beat the game without losing, if there is a tactic how to do it, I don't seem to know it.
Yeah, the savegame naming system is a bit unfortunate. In Windows it's further complicated by their location.moj wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:53 pm Have finally managed to find the save game’s location on my Mac. The filenames don’t reflect the name seen in Legion Arena itself (ie ‘Save_40_.dat’ rather than ‘post-Pydna.dat’) but are presumably renamable.
It would take a lot of dedication to truly explore the differences between skill paths that way; I always take my auxilia to master feint/swordsman/endurance + disciplined formations before any possible deviation. To get to that point they’re L14, and given the slow-down in experience gain it would take a further 10+ games down each path before there’s been sufficient promotion to make meaningful comparisons (eg anti skills version protection from skills).
Not sure even I’ve got that degree of interest! It’s certainly no substitute for a proper sandbox.
Aaah, this makes sense!I honestly don’t use them much. Auxiliary cavalry seem to progress quite quickly just from being on the battlefield. I buy them before Heraclea but hide them ‘off screen’; then buy L1 weapons/armour and send them searching for the light infantry at Asculum. They then engage skirmishers towards the end of Malventum, spend Messina and Aggreigentum in their stables, then just manage to catch a few skirmishers at Alalia before the kill count is reached.
If I’m lucky they’ll then be L7 in time for Adys, meaning they can be W3/A3. This is the first battle in which they’re actually needed. From then on they’re almost entirely concerned with engaging archers/skirmishers. I think they only battle they go head-to-head with other cavalry is Aquae Sextiae, with significant archer support.
In my infinite restarts/reloads record score game the aux cavalry reached L19, total kills was 754, highest kills was 67, and best exp was 2075.
In the game I’ve just completed (more below!) the aux cav reached L21, killed 1143, best kill 117, best exp 4578, but suffered 40 casualties.
I buy them for Scout the Etruscans (is that the name? well, scenario no. 4), even though it's a bit silly, at least they got lvl3 when entering the 2nd minicampaign. I made a few tests, and it looks like it's better to lose a few horsemen during the scen4 and scen5, but then going strong into the next battles.lavish great love and attention on my heavy cavalry.
Yep, this makes sense. I use some high-cost pincushions, and I generally don't use the Auxilia really effectivelly, namely when I run an archers-based army. So it's possible that my static gameplay yields more archers' exp.The megabow really isn’t vital to your score – needs another 5+ battles in the campaign for that – but yes, it’s fun and I miss it
I guess my high level auxilia, given the right terrain, will mince the opposition too quickly/efficiently? I very rarely run out of arrows except for at Bribacte. At Mulhouse and Nicopolis (essentially the same battle, just different seasons!) I’ll target skirmishers, but generally I’ll just let the archers auto-target. Unless you’re doing a huge amount of retargeting to high value targets then I don’t think there’s ‘enough difference to make a difference’.
I’ve no idea how the enemy are ‘valued’ but it’s more subtle than ‘one dead heavy inf = two dead light inf’. I assume the enemy’s level (visible) and armour (invisible) come into play, and this is then divided by your own unit’s level?
Interesting! The number of deaths is really surprising.So zero difference in levels (although I had two megabows for Philippi in the most recent game), and fairly negligible difference in kills, despite two very different sets of objectives. Slight difference in number of casualties sustained, though: 6 vs 99!
Yeah, in my last run I went for the Adv Anti-Ele for each Auxilia, because I also lost all patience with the mûmakil.I got tired of being torn apart at Asculum and Malventum. Asculum’s not so bad - the battle ‘times out’ – but at Malventum I had so many experiences of comprehensively winning the imaginary ‘no elephants battle’, then watching several auxilia units, then each ammo-less archer unit in turn, splashing about in the river before being routed by three or four elephants.
I now try to enter Malventum with two expert anti-elephant guys (you know the drill: one for the river, one for the lower right patch of scrub).
Hehe, I do the same!You’ve mentioned OCD before; my OCDish trait is that all my troops of any type *must* all receive the same training, so I waste skill progressions bringing the third auxilia up to expert anti-ele.
End of the DReam is a reall massacre, too. But when I compare the Fame results for Aux campaign with that of the Heavy campaign, it's quite obvious that Auxilia are not only good enough, they are better.As I’m sure I’ve said before, I go down the ‘anti-unit’ path. The weakest auxilia in my most recent game (more below!) finished on L30 with GM1 anti-inf and anti-cav skills. No ‘protection from’, no missile protection, no ‘stand firm’.
The only battle in which the auxilia are shown to be ‘light’ is Cannae when one unit will usually be routed. They do a lot of dying at Noriea, but from memory even quite advanced Praetorians get blown away there.
Yes, exactly that. I use them when my units have extreme adavantage and I don't wanna lose the unit to rng: Aux Cav against skirms in open, Auxilia in woods against heavy inf. Otherwise it's really bad, and Disc. Off. is the most useful.Do you make much use of ‘disciplined defensive’? My annecdotal/experimental experience suggests that for some reason it works well in rough/wooded terrain against any enemy, but is pretty much useless elsewhere. The armour bonuses are too small to offset the order cost and hit to offensive capabilities, and it reads as though a defensive formation actually increases the chance of being trampled? When I select ‘defensive’ it’s usually for the extra width of the formation, to prevent enemy from past me and into my archers.
Nice!!!So... my most recent game...
I never had any trouble since I found out that the lvl20 heavies are the men to kill. I realized that your Legate finishes 50 lvls higher tham mine: do we use the same patch? Maybe this may be the reason for the Aquae Sextae randomness?(Aquae Sextaie confuses me...
Good ideas! I'm just a bit afraid for the new players, it's not really friendly to start in an Iron Man fashion, but well.. new players...yeah.Here’s my proposal for Legion Arena release 1.2 (lol):
Each campaign starts off as IRON MAN. Complete the campaign as IRON MAN and you get a big shiny star to share with friends and family. Once you lose or retreat from a battle, the game reverts to REGULAR which has the following constraints:
- You can retreat from a battle at a cost of 100 XP. I think that’s enough to discourage restarting a battle merely because it’s ‘not going how you’d like’; it would require an unexpected and avoidable archer/cavalry rout before you would consider having another go.
- Replaying a completed battle (usually because you’ve lost, but I guess also if you’ve won at TERRIBLE COST and were too shocked during the course of the battle to sound the retreat) will cost you 200 XP.
If the game can lock/delete savefiles to prevent save scumming, then the above would be absolutely perfect for score comparisons and bragging rights.
- Disbanding a unit only gets you a 50% refund on the purchase cost of that unit (sorry, pincushioners!)
I don’t block or dodge at all! I can’t imagine playing Malventum now without at least one expert anti-ele standing in the river.Aleksandr wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 2:44 pm Speaking of Auxilia, I give them Disc. Form. on lvl6, other than that I go Swordsman, Feint, Endurance, Anti-Infantry, followed by anti-Cav plus Block, all the way up to (Grand)Master. Some of this may be an overkill, and Dodge may be better then Block, but I'm not sure if it's good enough, so this is my usual progression. I sometimes use one or two levels of anti-Elephant, it may be a bit wasted skill, otoh elephants can be ugly, so I guess I should bite the bullet.
I’ve never had much success with the disengage/re-engage routine, and because I don’t ‘drill’ I guess I haven’t always got the order points to do so regularly. I’m also pretty bad at using cavalry to trigger enemy units. My broad strategy is to let the enemy come at me in woods/hills/rough so my auxilia can do their thing, so the cavalry are more or less limited to smashing into ranged units once all the enemy infantry are safely engaged.I use them absolutely differently, they are my most favourite unit, my precious, I totally lavish great love and attention on my heavy cavalry ... I use them to draw the enemy into the fray, to kill the light units, namely skirmishers and militia, I like to overrun the routed, trample+disengage the shieldwalls.
Heh. And they’re the Peter Jackson stupid-sized ones, too.the mûmakil.
I’m surprised... would have thought your massed ranks of archers should save them too much of a drubbing. My save-scumming result was 18 casualties for 90pts, but my average over the first 17 games was around double that. Aux generally at W6/A6 or better by then. It’s not the *worst* massacre, but I can imagine that even two good Praetorian units would do well to get away with fewer than 20 casualties / 200pts.End of the DReam is a reall massacre (of aux), too. But when I compare the Fame results for Aux campaign with that of the Heavy campaign, it's quite obvious that Auxilia are not only good enough, they are better.
Ah, hadn’t considered the ‘extreme advantage’ aspect, but that makes sense. Glad it’s just not me who struggles with ‘defensive’ formation! But as previously mentioned, it’s sometimes necessary into order to have the width when there are archers huddled behind.[/quote]Yes, exactly that. I use them when my units have extreme adavantage and I don't wanna lose the unit to rng: Aux Cav against skirms in open, Auxilia in woods against heavy inf. Otherwise it's really bad, and Disc. Off. is the most useful.
Are the L20 heavies one of the units on the righthand side? I really can’t see any pattern to it. In my iron man game the opposing general was *absolutely* the last enemy on the field for the final ten seconds or more.(Aquae Sextaie) I never had any trouble since I found out that the lvl20 heavies are the men to kill. I realized that your Legate finishes 50 lvls higher tham mine: do we use the same patch? Maybe this may be the reason for the Aquae Sextae randomness?
Nah, these new players (heh) won’t notice... it’s exactly the same game, but after your first non-win you no longer get a nice “I BEAT LEGION ARENA” badge at end.Good ideas! I'm just a bit afraid for the new players, it's not really friendly to start in an Iron Man fashion, but well.. new players...yeah.
Well... just from reading this thread you can see there’s clearly a *massive* demand for LA2. Seems like a no-brainer to me!It's a pity that the chances for LA2 are really low, but maybe the Slitherine guys still read this thread? Who knows... ?
I train the Block and/or Dodge and/or Missile Protection only after the unit has GM Swordsman (this gets them cool stuff), Master Endurance, Feint, Anti-Inf, anti-Cav. This basically means that only the very first units gain enough levels to train the defensive upgrades.I don’t block or dodge at all! I can’t imagine playing Malventum now without at least one expert anti-ele standing in the river.
I really love the cavalry drill. It's so easy once you find out the trick. And the trick is to attack in a DEFENSIVE STANCE, then disengage immediatelly the moment they hit the opposing unit. Defensive? To have a much wider front. Disengage immediatelly? To not get bogged down.I’ve never had much success with the disengage/re-engage routine, and because I don’t ‘drill’ I guess I haven’t always got the order points to do so regularly. I’m also pretty bad at using cavalry to trigger enemy units. My broad strategy is to let the enemy come at me in woods/hills/rough so my auxilia can do their thing, so the cavalry are more or less limited to smashing into ranged units once all the enemy infantry are safely engaged.
Yep!Heh. And they’re the Peter Jackson stupid-sized ones, too.
I expected the same, but the enemy is too close, and the units are so brutal that once they hit the archers they kill them in few seconds. I am able to stop the cavalry with pincushion Triarii, OR stop the infantry with pincushion Pretties, but never the both. I realized that the cavalry is totally dead to Triarii, and those can stand a few moments against the infantry horde, so I use them, then a lvl1 elephant as a bait, then two Auxilia to hold the line, Aux Cav to kill the skirms, rest the best of archers. It's a so-so battle, and if there's a better tactic for my kind of core, I don't know about one.I’m surprised... would have thought your massed ranks of archers should save them too much of a drubbing. My save-scumming result was 18 casualties for 90pts, but my average over the first 17 games was around double that. Aux generally at W6/A6 or better by then. It’s not the *worst* massacre, but I can imagine that even two good Praetorian units would do well to get away with fewer than 20 casualties / 200pts.
I am ashamed that I didn't mention the importance of the Always Trample In Defensive Stance doctrine. It's amazing: the wide front of the unit, and the fact that it doesn't penetrate too deep make it really powerful and safe tactic. I change the Aux Cav to Offensive once they are engaged, namely against weaker targets, but when closing in (namely against archers) and for the initial hit, I use Def Stance 95 % of time.Ah, hadn’t considered the ‘extreme advantage’ aspect, but that makes sense. Glad it’s just not me who struggles with ‘defensive’ formation! But as previously mentioned, it’s sometimes necessary into order to have the width when there are archers huddled behind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkTerIG ... q&index=47Are the L20 heavies one of the units on the righthand side? I really can’t see any pattern to it. In my iron man game the opposing general was *absolutely* the last enemy on the field for the final ten seconds or more.
Yes, you're right! I thought about it, and I just realized that I simpl installed the game from CD, never patching it.. and tbh, idk if I ever will, I'm afraid of the "missing pop-ups" bug. But otoh, that bug seems to be linked to nvidia, not to the game itself.Re patch levels, I think you’re under-patched! In April 2006 a Slitherine person mentioned that a patch increased legate scores; you yourself were getting your legate into the mid 60s in July 2012. I’m running Mac 1.1.1, but I don’t know if Win patches were synced. Also don’t know what changes the patch makes –I thought it was purely about OS compatibility, but it clearly isn’t.
True! Than I support your idea!Nah, these new players (heh) won’t notice... it’s exactly the same game, but after your first non-win you no longer get a nice “I BEAT LEGION ARENA” badge at end.
True, true once again!Well... just from reading this thread you can see there’s clearly a *massive* demand for LA2. Seems like a no-brainer to me!
Yep! I play chess in 256 colours, I don't need any "improved" graphics! Otoh, if it wouldn't be done at the expense of gameplay... why not, it's 2022 already.I’m not sure what I’d like to see from an LA2 (other than my IRON MAN badge and the battle replay penalty). I don’t think ‘improving’ the graphics would actually represent an improvement; I’d certainly hate to lose the naked fanatics’ little passport photo faces. I have Cult of Mithras but I very rarely played it; I think the no-heal restriction was just too extreme. Would have loved to have seen a ‘Legion Area: MORE BATTLES’ add-on, if nothing else just to get/use the megabows.
Yes, you're right. I also dislike the robotic nature of the AI, I know that it's programmed to act by the preset orders, but after a third or fourth playthrough, you know how it'll react, move, etc.My main issue with the game as it stands is the difficulty/sequencing of the battles. Versuvius/Granacus might have their place about a dozen battles in, but one after the other in the last quarter of the game? Ditto Divo - I think a couple of L12-15 aux could handle that one quite easily without archers. And Philippi is the worst boss battle ever! I can only assume there was insufficient play-testing before the game was released.
That's exactly how I design campaigns for Panzer/Open General! We cannot change the outcome of the war, but we are tiny enough to wage our own war!The battles can’t be resequenced without losing the game’s sort-of educational aspirations, but we’re fighting at a very small scale – I’m commanding an ‘army’ of 360 men – so it’s possible to make all sorts of changes to opposition numbers/levels/tactics on the basis that our engagement represents 1/50th or 1/100th of the larger battle`
Pip? Iain? Hello!!!Once you acknowledge that we’re a small detachment of troops rather than a bunch of legions then it’s possible to introduce all sorts of fictitious, lost to history skirmishes with ‘interesting’ terrain and victory conditions.
If anyone at Slitherine is reading this and wants to engage me as Battle Balance Consultant for LA2, my rates are very reasonable...
You make it sound so tempting! Will give it a go, some time.Aleksandr wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 5:30 pm I really love the cavalry drill. It's so easy once you find out the trick. And the trick is to attack in a DEFENSIVE STANCE, then disengage immediatelly the moment they hit the opposing unit. Defensive? To have a much wider front. Disengage immediatelly? To not get bogged down.
Once you'll provoke the enemy units into chasing the cavalry, you can kite them all over the battlefield in front of your archers, drive them into the woods for an Auxilia meating, open gaps to hit their back row of skirms, etc. Once the grand melee starts, I encircle the battlefield and trample the routed units for additional experience, and of course I sieve the enemy, meaning to hit the scrum from behind and let the enemy die post-battle while trying to... well... sieve through my cavalry.
Oh. I just front up with two well-spaced, defensive auxilia. They’re further advanced than I’d like, because of the Suicidal Skirmishing Archers Problem that’s perculiar to this battle. Archers in bottom left; third auxilia waiting to step in on my right flank is/when the unit ahead are broken; cavalry trot round the right side to take out the enemy archer. Works for me, and far less ‘steering’!(End of the Dream)I am able to stop the cavalry with pincushion Triarii, OR stop the infantry with pincushion Pretties, but never the both. I realized that the cavalry is totally dead to Triarii, and those can stand a few moments against the infantry horde, so I use them, then a lvl1 elephant as a bait, then two Auxilia to hold the line, Aux Cav to kill the skirms, rest the best of archers. It's a so-so battle, and if there's a better tactic for my kind of core, I don't know about one.
The Ambrones Nobles at around 2:18? Interesting. Will give it a go, some time. Have you tried just archer-rushing them?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkTerIG ... q&index=47
Unless I'm mistaken, it's the shielded unit NW from the enemy general. Obviously we cannot check anything at 5:45, coz the battle ended with a total scrum...
Yep. And I’m sure that on *any* battlefield you’ll be able to find atypical units and a bit of scrub, a pile of rocks, an area of bog...We cannot change the outcome of the war, but we are tiny enough to wage our own war!
We’re very much ‘gaming the game’ but it’s a testament to the game that we bother to do so. I’m sure we’ve both forgotten how we arrived at our army compositions, or how we arrived at our pre-battle deployments, but it’s now a question of *tiny* tweaks to positioning. I have a couple of battles where I’m not 100% sure of my best tactics/deployment, but that’s it.I also dislike the robotic nature of the AI, I know that it's programmed to act by the preset orders, but after a third or fourth playthrough, you know how it'll react, move, etc.
Wow, you’re really going for it hereSpeaking of LA2, there are a few things I'd welcome/expect:
- improved graphics... it's 2022
- improved AI
- Iron Man mode
- random skirmish/battle
- scenario editor
- CAMPAIGN EDITOR!
- more civs, each with its own campaign: Latins (tutorial campaign, but a tiny bit longer now), Rome, Greece, Puns, Celts, Germanics, Persians, Steppe Nomads, eight civs, two for each basic element
- a few more units: surely horse archers, war chariots, the "lets open this can of worms" field artillery; and an overall units' balancing
If you change ‘minimum’ to ‘maximum’, and ‘reasonable’ to ‘unreasonable’, then I’m in full agreement!There's always more to wish for, but this is an absolute minimum, one that's also pretty reasonable imho.
It's one of the better and safer ways how to use the cavalry. Horsemen tend to have big losses, at least until they can get the three big items: Sarmatian Cav Armour, Teutonic Horses and Ach. Armour. They are also my sole heavy unit quite often, and thus every lost men hurts.You make it sound so tempting! Will give it a go, some time.
I tried the same, but the losses were awful.Oh. I just front up with two well-spaced, defensive auxilia. They’re further advanced than I’d like, because of the Suicidal Skirmishing Archers Problem that’s perculiar to this battle. Archers in bottom left; third auxilia waiting to step in on my right flank is/when the unit ahead are broken; cavalry trot round the right side to take out the enemy archer. Works for me, and far less ‘steering’!
Yep, them. Yep, tried. It works flawlessly, you just need someone to stop the cavalry flanks, I use 2x PinTriarii; even at lvl1 they hold their ground long enough for the archers to win. I also tried a full-Archers approach with only the Legate holding the left flank, and I was able to kill the Ambrones before the cav could hit me... but the enemy archers shoot at my own men, and killed a lot of them, so the pin/core flanks are needed.The Ambrones Nobles at around 2:18? Interesting. Will give it a go, some time. Have you tried just archer-rushing them?
Exactly!Yep. And I’m sure that on *any* battlefield you’ll be able to find atypical units and a bit of scrub, a pile of rocks, an area of bog...We cannot change the outcome of the war, but we are tiny enough to wage our own war!
Yes, this is indeed spot on. I sometimes feel a bit weird when trying to beat my record, coz by now I don't really fight the enemy, but rather do a routine work, but as long as it's fun, why not? I also try new tactics from time to time, I got something to share in a few days.We’re very much ‘gaming the game’ but it’s a testament to the game that we bother to do so. I’m sure we’ve both forgotten how we arrived at our army compositions, or how we arrived at our pre-battle deployments, but it’s now a question of *tiny* tweaks to positioning. I have a couple of battles where I’m not 100% sure of my best tactics/deployment, but that’s it.
Exactly, that's what I'd love to see. I know that some new behaviour could easily become too powerful or annoying (imagine heavies who'd never charge no matter how many arrows rain at their heads), but a bit of an AI tweak would be nice.I’m not asking for the opposition army to be commanded by Deep Thought, but it would be fantastic if there it some greater level of decision-making in response to events: enemy heavies/cavalry not ploughing into hills and woodland unless you’re first ‘annoyed’ them with ranged fire, for example. Or, at Bagradas, the enemy reserve deploying once you’ve destroyed the first wave of attack.
Yes, this will be a solid improvement. I'm not sure about the limited purchase (we're already limited by gold), but all the other ideas are totally fine and doable, namely small randomness factor. It's one gaming aspect that always adds to replayability. It can be dangerous, and it would definitely screw the recordmen, but there are people who speedrun Diablo2, much more rng-based game, and it doesn't seem problematic, quite the contrary.A simpler fix than producing a superior AI would be one or more of the following:
a) Multiple plans for the enemy. What if the enemy cavalry occasionally charge rather than trot at the Annexation of Etruria? What if the enemy cavalry keep coming down the right rather than switching to the left at Etruscans?
b) Random enemy reinforcements: two units of light cavalry or an elite heavy infantry formation *might* enter from left or right when you least expect them.
c) Fog of war: you can see where the enemy units are, but you can’t accurately identify them beyond the first rank. And there is randomised substitution/swapping of units before each battle, eg you don’t know until the horns sound whether those horses in the distance are L20 cataphracts or L1 children on rocking horses.
d) Restricted unit purchasing: the only thing your neighbourhood pro-consul has in stock right now are legionaries, hastati, and noble cavalry. Do you want to buy now, or wait to see which units he has after the next battle?
All these randomised elements would obviously screw up some players' (cough) sad obsessive chasing of high scores, but I'd say it's healthier
Well, ummm... yes...Wow, you’re really going for it here
I mean, it's totally possible that I think about LA a little bit too much. Keep it nice and oldschool, keep it undemanding, just add a little bit of a "whoah!", and I'm absolutely happy.Graphics: I’m not as young as I used to be, and I like my games to look a bit ‘basic’. I never really recovered from the visual changes between Civ 3 and Civ 4.
I wouldn't add random battles into the campaign flow (although non-linear campaign could be cool, PG2 / Open General work this way), as this could alter the feel of the game bit too much. A few random units here and there, yes, but I'd keep the overal campaign design.Random skirmish/battle: yep, having every third or fourth battle as an essentially random event (but obviously one which takes account of the position in the game; no point having a Mulhouse when you’ve got half a dozen L10 units) would be good.
Yep, this is a must, this is what builds not only the scenarios, but also modding/design community.Editors: hell yes.
Sadly, you're right, this would never pay for itself. It's surely not a viable idea for an LA mod, but maybe for LA2?More civs: sounds like a lot of development work for a target market of two. Are you suggesting we should be able to *play* as the Persians? I’d be more than happy with a 60+ game Celtic campaign; the existing one ends horribly abruptly.
Yeah, horse archers would be nice, static bolt throwers are also a good idea, then of course chariots, and quite some elephants. This would be sooo cool!More units: mounted archers would be fun to come against – the Romans always enjoyed those battles! ‘Field artillery’ could work as an enemy-only unit: longer range than archers, but completely static (perhaps with a limited fire radius?). Take out that bolt-thrower! Can we also have war pigs running in all directions?
If you change ‘minimum’ to ‘maximum’, and ‘reasonable’ to ‘unreasonable’, then I’m in full agreement!There's always more to wish for, but this is an absolute minimum, one that's also pretty reasonable imho.
Yeah, I also often wage one battle more than I should, and then I'm losing patience and soldiers. :-IHad another go at IRON MAN yesterday.
...
I am now retiring from the game for at least 4-5 days. Will have another stab some time next week.
We're waiting!
Oh, hi there and thanks for your interest! I had a serious man cold in the past days, but now I'm back in strength again!
Horde approved.arrrowless archers splashing around with two elephants for over an hour of in-game time.
Yeah, that's it, that's exaaactly the issue!In both cases once I'd got past Aquae Sextiae I switched off and went into victory lap mode.
Am starting to think that IRON MAN, and having absolutely no concern for casualties, isn't much fun. It boils down to the three or four battles where you can play badly enough to fail to meet the victory conditions; most of the other 60+ battles are basically 'set and go' with next to no need for in-battle management.
Weird. I cannot comment more, as I finished mere one campaign with the patched game, but I think that there's some hidden experience resource.Something I noticed that surprised me: I completed the second, 'defeated at Zela' campaign to see the score (just short of 1,142k). I suffered a huge number of auxilia casualties, with probably 10x as many 'breakages' as in a score-conscious campaign. I thought this would mean that the archers had to save my arse by making many more kills. But after Philippi my archers were L25/L25/L25/L24, so absolutely no improvement in level attainment.
So, what about I test that, hm?I think that there's some hidden experience resource... What's your opinion on the post-battle bonus, is it real or do I see things?
