Slitherine

Mike ur english is excellent,it's alot better than my german

Welcome to the forums and invite more people to check out the site.

There is only one guy that most of us have any kind of problem and it's not because he's german (I think you know who).

I wish we could have a german forum,but that's up to admin.

chris10 wrote: while PzC is really a great PG remake it lacks the feeling of epicness...there is not enough depth and not enough grand strategy to attract all the serious hex wargamers..and there is quite a few of them around...maps are to small...warfare scale is to small...not enough game mechanics...there is quite a few of these issues...scenarios are to generic and repetitive...while I understand that some may argue about the simplicity of the engine being all so great its really not all that great cause at the same time its the biggest flaw of PanzerCorps ..to attract more wargame players there is more strategy needed, more mechanics, bigger scale warfare, more depth etc

I disagree, Chris. While I don't doubt that the "Grand Strategy" would attract new people I also don't doubt that this would make that some people wouldn't be interested in the game anymore.
This is a beer and pretzel game. You inject more complexity , bigger maps, and this will attract a different kind of gamer, but not necessarily more. I would say probably less.
You want a Panzer Corps WITE not Panzer Corps. I don't think that this game will ever evolve to that. But that, only the devs know for sure.

@mike
Again, don't worry with your English. We understand it perfectly.
My English is also sometimes a disaster, and yet I'm a moderator.

VPaulus wrote:
I disagree, Chris. While I don't doubt that the "Grand Strategy" would attract new people I also don't doubt that this would make that some people wouldn't be interested in the game anymore.
This is a beer and pretzel game. You inject more complexity , bigger maps, and this will attract a different kind of gamer, but not necessarily more. I would say probably less.
You want a Panzer Corps WITE not Panzer Corps. I don't think that this game will ever evolve to that. But that only the devs know for sure.

Paulo...the amount of people playing WiTE and WiTP may be 10 times those playing PzC,maybe more...there could be a nice compromise to satisfy people on both end..to label PzC a beer and pretzel game may be the biggest possible mistake as there is a lot more potential...
and no ..I dont want Panzercorps with the sophisticated mechanics of WiTE but with a few more mechanics...and by releasing a game system working on a modular basis with big add-ons and smaller scale maps Add-Ons with adjustable mechanics in the gamerules.pzdat there could be easily twice or triple the amount of people attracted to PzC...I dont see it only from a gameplay persepctive but from an economical perspective...and this game has a lot more potential and should not be wasted in the beer&pretzel corner
Take a ride in wargaming forums..lots of people skip PzC due to its "to simple" engine...the engine would support more complexity in the same exe and nobody would be forced to play with more complexity but he could using a different Add-On...simple but effective..

I agree with both of you

Good thing we have talented modders and moderators.

We just need to get the owrd out about the amount of great user made material

VPaulus wrote:

chris10 wrote: while PzC is really a great PG remake it lacks the feeling of epicness...there is not enough depth and not enough grand strategy to attract all the serious hex wargamers..and there is quite a few of them around...maps are to small...warfare scale is to small...not enough game mechanics...there is quite a few of these issues...scenarios are to generic and repetitive...while I understand that some may argue about the simplicity of the engine being all so great its really not all that great cause at the same time its the biggest flaw of PanzerCorps ..to attract more wargame players there is more strategy needed, more mechanics, bigger scale warfare, more depth etc

I disagree, Chris. While I don't doubt that the "Grand Strategy" would attract new people I also don't doubt that this would make that some people wouldn't be interested in the game anymore.
This is a beer and pretzel game. You inject more complexity , bigger maps, and this will attract a different kind of gamer, but not necessarily more. I would say probably less.
You want a Panzer Corps WITE not Panzer Corps. I don't think that this game will ever evolve to that. But that, only the devs know for sure.

I completely agree with VPaulus on this one. I'd be all for a little bit more flexibility in the engine, but the important part is "little".
Going too far into the wargame direction would take the game away from the Panzer General "beer & prezel" heritage - there are hardcore wargames out there, and I don't have any interest in playing them.
I'm also under the impression the wargamer market isn't exactly huge - there are dedicated fans willing to pay a premium for games, but not exactly a horde of them. I'm not sure about WitE having 10 times the playerbase of PzC - I'd be quite surprised if this was correct.
In any event, I do realize these guys are the main clients Slitherine/Matrix are used to dealing with, but in my opinion, a big potential market for PzC lies in the exact opposite direction. We've had some discussions about this in the past on the main PzC forum and I don't want to warm up the old arguments here, but it's been talked about.

I DO feel that, like VPaulus wrote, it's only natural for communities to constantly bleed people, and the only way to counter that is to keep the ball rolling, so to speak, and this is where, in my eyes, Slitherine hasn't exactly done a grand job.
With Rudankort being back, we'll see how it goes in the future. Time will tell, I guess.

@mike322539: Notfalls versteh ich auch Deutsch, aber das ist hier nunmal ein englischsprachiges Forum...
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rezaf

I couldn't have written better, rezaf. I fully agree with all your points, except that I think that Slitherine is not guilty. The absence of Rudankort, while I've no doubt that it was fully justified, is the blame of a certain delay in the release of new updates and expansions. And it was in a crucial time. It was after that , I've noticed that some of the most active members were leaving. Again I'm in a position to observe this, because I've been daily in this forum for almost a year and because I'm a moderator and pay more attention to the threads, generally speaking of course.
But with the returning of Rudankort and with all the new releases, and the opening of PzC to iPad casual crowd, maybe it will bring more people. More and more I would also to see the game on Steam, where most of the PC casual crowd is.
It's time to move to Steam.

chris10 wrote:Iam not sure what the reason but I feel that both you and Paulus sort of ignored what I said and pulled out your standard "beer & prezel" stuff...I said a "few" more mechanics allowing for more depth and big scnearios...I didnt said war simulation ala WiTE...that wouldnt work well withthe engine...I talked about a compromies (which has to be worked out) to try to get people from both ends yet both of you used the extreme (WiTE) end to dismiss what I said... .........

I actually missed the part where VPaulus had referenced WitE and was referring to you mentioning the playerbase of WitE and WitP.
Which parts of your post do you feel were ignored?
I can give you a more specific example: I think too large PzC maps wouldn't be such a good thing, partly because the AI isn't really up to the task of handling them, but even if it were, in my eyes, PzC should be about managing an intimate core of units, not a huge, nameless force. If I could pick, I'd much rather have more focus on the individual units and their leaders/history/experiences rather than huge maps with even more units on both sides. Personally, I think even the DLCs, which aren't going into the HUGE territory for the most part, are still already stretching the boundaries of map sizes and headcounts.
And more mechanics ... I'd like to have stuff like a couple of additional unit flags, for example so you could have a unit that's great against stationary hard targets (bunkers) but can't put a dent into a tank, just simple stuff like that which I consider "within reach". But more mechanics sounds like, I dunno, Morale, or a full-fledged supply system. And frankly, I think these things are great, but have no place in a game like PzC. $0.02 and all.

VPaulus wrote:It's time to move to Steam.

chris10 wrote:That would put Matrix out of buisness so I doubt this ever to happen... Matrix has two great games which on Steam could do a lot better: War in the East and Distant Worlds...yet none of them is on steam so its a Publisher thing...

PzC has already been released boxed outside of Matrix/Slitherine in Germany and at least in the UK (and I think in Russia, too), so I don't really see the problem. It would open up this casual-oriented title to a host of new gamers.
However, one would have to be prepared for considerable price dropping, which is just the way things work on Steam. I bet a host of players would pick up PzC for $5 during one of Steam's spectacular sales.
I agree DW would also be a good title to put on there, but WitE? Cmon. It's as hardcore as a wargame can get. The core mechanics - from what I recollect purely from reading reviews - are innovative and casual-friendly, but that doesn't change the fact that this is a game which simulates the lice on the heads of individual soldiers and has them have an impact on the marching speed of an infantry column.
It can still be a great game - I wouldn't want to claim otherwise - but on mass-market-appeal, I'd rather put my money on PzC.
Also, I can see selling PzC for $5 being painful for Slitherine, imagine them selling WitE for $5. Out of the question.

Finally, VPaulus, as you're probably aware, I can only speculate about Rudankorts absence and possible reasons etc., but I know for a fact the way Slitherine chose to handle the DLCs, so I think it's fair to put SOME blame on them.
The amount of blame can be argued about, sure, but they're the one handling everything. Eltern haften für Ihre Kinder - anyone know the proper translation for this saying in english?
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rezaf

Edit: Remember the X-Files? Where did Chris' post go? *scratches head*

rezaf wrote:
Edit: Remember the X-Files? Where did Chris' post go? *scratches head*

I think he erased that post, I too was answering and when I press submit it said that the post didn't exist. Because I sometimes press inadvertently the edit button instead of quote (yes, I've an extra button than most of you) I thought that I had screwed somehow his post. But thinking well I think I couldn't, so he must have erased his post.

rezaf wrote: I actually missed the part where VPaulus had referenced WitE and was referring to you mentioning the playerbase of WitE and WitP.
Which parts of your post do you feel were ignored?

that you both sort of referred to hardcore wargames which wasnt what I was talking about

rezaf wrote: And more mechanics ... I'd like to have stuff like a couple of additional unit flags, for example so you could have a unit that's great against stationary hard targets (bunkers) but can't put a dent into a tank, just simple stuff like that which I consider "within reach". But more mechanics sounds like, I dunno, Morale, or a full-fledged supply system. And frankly, I think these things are great, but have no place in a game like PzC. $0.02 and all.

for gods sake..no morale but a nice simple supply system and combined to that a simple war/industrial production system...to be activated by checkbox so no harm to normal gameplay and a few other things along with scripting...really minor things but which could make a huge difference

rezaf wrote: PzC has already been released boxed outside of Matrix/Slitherine in Germany and at least in the UK (and I think in Russia, too), so I don't really see the problem.

It was Matrix who pulled the strings and made the contracts with these releases.I know this cause I was in the german WiTE beta team and worked with the translator employed by Matrix preparing the german release. So they still had the control as the german and UK publishers are only sub contractors but STEAM would not swallow being subcontractor for obvious reasons. They would simply take over the thing.

rezaf wrote: I agree DW would also be a good title to put on there, but WitE?

Ever looked the forum account for how many topics and posts for WiTE and WiTP ?
As well there is considerably amount of wargaming forums and not all WiTE players are on Matrix Forums
War in the East together with War in the Pacific would do great if advertised and promoted the right way

uhhh..sry..I didnt really meant to derail the topic that much

This thread is evolving into a party, just need to break a few sixpacks Sorry to crush the party but i am posting back on-topic.
In all honesty it took me a while to try the sprayshop but last weekend i finally did. I'm not a graphics man at all, i prefer to script a legion of Soviet units on a mission of death but i was truly surprised how easy it is to use, even for a complete n00b like me. In a minute or so i managed to spraypaint a PzIVD to be used as a PzIVC and also with a PzIIC (for IID/F). I didn't even have to look for a guide, it all went like i was using the program for years.

In 10 minutes i managed to reskin, save, update the efile. (don't ask what it is about)



I'm impressed and a bit proud of myself.
If you guys are open to new features, i'd like to ask the possibility to remove the emblem entirely and/or replaceable by something else.
Thank you guys for this magnificent tool, i am going to keep using it .

Another question: the updated link in the first window, does it contain everything that was posted later? Just wondering if i have all currently available masks.

chris10 wrote:for gods sake..no morale but a nice simple supply system and combined to that a simple war/industrial production system...to be activated by checkbox so no harm to normal gameplay and a few other things along with scripting...really minor things but which could make a huge difference

Well, I think a war production system is totally out of scope for a game like PzC, and I don't think implementing one would be as minor a task as you imply. A lot of work, for a system not even always in use? I don't think Rudankort will ever implement anything like this in PzC.

chris10 wrote:It was Matrix who pulled the strings and made the contracts with these releases.I know this cause I was in the german WiTE beta team and worked with the translator employed by Matrix preparing the german release. So they still had the control as the german and UK publishers are only sub contractors but STEAM would not swallow being subcontractor for obvious reasons. They would simply take over the thing.

What do you mean by "take over the thing"? They're a publisher and don't take over anything. They have certain terms, such as that, from what I recollect, a dev cannot pick whether or not they want their game to be part of a sale.
But some of Slitherines reaction towards Steam was almost hostile, so I'm also in doubt whether or not this can happen at all. We'll see.

I quoted the boxed releases because they will have the result that, before long, you'll most likely be able to pick up PzC for $5 or $10 anyway - the wonders of the good old bargain bin. Might actually pay off for Slitherine, though - maybe some of those folks will want to pick up some DLCs...

chris10 wrote:Ever looked the forum account for how many topics and posts for WiTE and WiTP ?/quote]

What about it?
Looking at the stats, the only reason the WitE forum has a lot more total posts than this one is the AAR forum - naturally an epic game like WitE lends itself to tutorials much more than a small-scale game like PzC.
Postcounts on the other subforums aren't that impressive compared to this one.

But I repeat, I don't want to argue that WitE isn't a great game, I merely think it's more ... niche than PzC. But I don't own WitE, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

chris10 wrote:uhhh..sry..I didnt really meant to derail the topic that much

Ah, no problem, since this is my thread, I feel entitled to take it a bit off topic as long as there's no discussion taking place about DCS.

Speaking of DCS ... did anyone play around with the insignia replace feature?
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rezaf

nikivdd wrote:This thread is evolving into a party, just need to break a few sixpacks Sorry to crush the party but i am posting back on-topic.
In all honesty it took me a while to try the sprayshop but last weekend i finally did. I'm not a graphics man at all, i prefer to script a legion of Soviet units on a mission of death but i was truly surprised how easy it is to use, even for a complete n00b like me. In a minute or so i managed to spraypaint a PzIVD to be used as a PzIVC and also with a PzIIC (for IID/F). I didn't even have to look for a guide, it all went like i was using the program for years.

I took care and revised the app quite a few times in order to make it easy to work with, so thanks for writing that nico - seems my efforts weren't all in vain.

nikivdd wrote:If you guys are open to new features, i'd like to ask the possibility to remove the emblem entirely and/or replaceable by something else.

Erm, you DID read the most recent update which introduces exactly this feature, right?
It works better with some icons than with others, and better with some skins than with others, and the emblems could use some work, but it's supposed to do exactly what you asked for.

nikivdd wrote:Another question: the updated link in the first window, does it contain everything that was posted later? Just wondering if i have all currently available masks.

No, I haven't yet included the latest updates from Dwight. I'll make a new package eventually, but hope to get some feedback on the emblem replace stuff first.
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rezaf

I have posted some new masks here: viewtopic.php?f=147&t=32643&start=220
A few further masks follows in a hour ...

rezaf wrote: Well, I think a war production system is totally out of scope for a game like PzC, and I don't think implementing one would be as minor a task as you imply.

a very rudimentary sytem I was thinking about..replacing the prestige...

rezaf wrote: What do you mean by "take over the thing"? They're a publisher and don't take over anything.

STEAM is the natural enemy of publishers like Matrix or Slitherine ,they are the big supermarket cooporation crushing the little shop on the corner (kleinen tante Emma Laden) by placing a big market next door and yes they would take over the games entirely as publisher and putting Matrix out of buisness cause nobody would dl a Matrix 80 $ version if STEAM sells 10.000 units for 25$..the developer makes money..STEAM makes money and Matrix is out of buisness...its the buisness cicle and the games market is a river full of Piranhas so they try to protect their equitys...nowadays publishers have court cases lasting for years fighting to death about franchises and publishing developement rights

rezaf wrote: But some of Slitherines reaction towards Steam was almost hostile

no wonder..they have to be hostile cause of the above stated...

chris10 wrote: STEAM is the natural enemy of publishers like Matrix or Slitherine ,they are the big supermarket cooporation crushing the little shop on the corner (kleinen tante Emma Laden) by placing a big market next door and yes they would take over the games entirely as publisher and putting Matrix out of buisness cause nobody would dl a Matrix 80 $ version if STEAM sells 10.000 units for 25$..the developer makes money..STEAM makes money and Matrix is out of buisness...its the buisness cicle and the games market is a river full of Piranhas so they try to protect their equitys...nowadays publishers have court cases lasting for years fighting to death about franchises and publishing developement rights

Slitherine/Matrix is not just a digital distributor like Steam is.
From my private talks with some of Slitherine staff never felt they were hostile to Steam.
Steam is not much different from Applestore.
I agree that Steam is "removing" the existence of the publisher middle role, in some cases. But remember that funding is still needed. And many times the funding is supported by the publishers and not by the developers. At least partially.
So I would say yes, publishers are generally interested in a digital distribution platform such as Steam, which have a great visibility and a growing number of users. In certain cases it can means a lot of money in spite of the titles being sold at a lower price.

New mask collection: viewtopic.php?f=147&t=32643&p=325267#p325267

Thx churchy

This thread has become very interesting to hear the voices of those "in the know" of these games and PZC. I just wanted to say that I believe many of the mods that have been done will be more appreciated in the future when more and more players explore the possibilities of the game. I don't think there are very many players who even look in the direction of mods or using them. They have no idea they are in a candy shop but only eating vanilla.

Conversely, IF Slitherine chose to incorporate some of the mods in the game in some way, I believe it would give it a boost that it lacks now. When a person can build and design their own army (or armies) so easily and play on good maps with variations in the difficulty of play (not only through the game now but also with such mods as deductors, Mongo's and others), they are right where they would want to be with PzC. It's just that not that many people know what can and has been done with PzC since it came out. They left before the cake was served with the icing, before the beer got cold and the pretzels were served hot with mustard.

I've tried to make my own scenarios,but i think, i'm too stupid for that..that's one of the reasons that i like yours,Nico. Perhaps,one day, we create a mod togehter....