Slitherine

What is the reason of setting -1 modifier for an elephant unit fighting other elephant unit and losing the fight?

kraff wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 10:28 am What is the reason of setting -1 modifier for an elephant unit fighting other elephant unit and losing the fight?

The main reason really is to avoid complicating the rules with an exclusion.

It does make elephant vs elephant combats more volatile, which is probably historical.

I see.

That's actually a very interesting issue. It seems to me that elephants are already nerfed too much. They are:

1. as slow as infantry and unmaneuverable just like pike formation
2. useless against pikes
3. subjected to just the same cohesion tests as infantry is
4. very vulnerable to javelins

I may be very wrong, but I'll risk it and say that in my opinion only 4. is not counterfactual.

I'd argue that a formation of elephants can be faster and more maneuverable than infantry formation. Elephants were not as disadvantaged against pike formation as they are in FOG2. Number 3 is very interesting, because cohesion tests for them are the same as for infantry, meaning elephant in-game "psychology" is modeled on in-game human "psychology".

Is combat behavior of elephants fighting each other really the same as combat behaviour of humans fighting each other? Psychologically speaking. Do elephants' morale drops on sight of dying or wounded "brother in arms"? I mean, in reality? It is in game, and that leads to strange situations when a unit of elephants drops two levels of morale when charged frontally by another elephant unit, just because it lost two elephants out of twenty. So that's -1 for "significant casualties", further -1 for "lost combat round badly and -1 for "fighting elephants".

Seems a bit extreme to me. There are examples of battles where elephant corps, so to speak, suffered heavy casualties, and it didn't break. And fighting against humans armed with all the tools to scare an animal. I understand an animal can run amok due to extreme pain (although animals are incomparably more resilient to pain, than we are) or fear induced by things it sees for the first time and is not used to seeing. But I'd argue such fear can only be induced by people, not by other animals, so when fighting infantry, not other elephants.

Just a few thoughts. I hope this will evolve into an interesting discussion and I will learn a few things I don't know yet.

Sorry kraff, I have to disagree with you on nearly everything you said!

kraff wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 6:38 pm
I'd argue that a formation of elephants can be faster and more maneuverable than infantry formation.

In FOG2 Elephants can move three tiles, non-light infantry only two. So elephants are already faster then infantry in the game.

As for manoeuvrability, I don't know of any historical examples where Elephant formations performed complex manoeuvres on the battlefield. They mostly seemed to have just formed up and if they moved at all it was just straight forward. The only exception I can think of was Seleucus' elephant reserve at Ipsos, it turned to face Demetrius' cavalry that had got behind the allied army, but that probably could have been achieved by the individual elephants simply turning on the spot.

kraff wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 6:38 pm
Elephants were not as disadvantaged against pike formation as they are in FOG2.

I can't think of any examples when elephants defeated steady enemy pike phalanxes. There is Kynoskephalai, where the left wing Macedonian phalanx was defeated by Roman Legions supported by elephants, but the phalanx had not deployed properly into it's fighting formation, so it would probably count as Disordered or Disrupted in FOG2.

kraff wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 6:38 pm
Number 3 is very interesting, because cohesion tests for them are the same as for infantry, meaning elephant in-game "psychology" is modeled on in-game human "psychology".

Is combat behavior of elephants fighting each other really the same as combat behaviour of humans fighting each other? Psychologically speaking. Do elephants' morale drops on sight of dying or wounded "brother in arms"? I mean, in reality? It is in game, and that leads to strange situations when a unit of elephants drops two levels of morale when charged frontally by another elephant unit, just because it lost two elephants out of twenty.

Elephants are intelligent, sensitive animals, not inanimate weapons! Of course they start to panic when they see other elephants being killed or wounded.

kraff wrote: ↑Sat May 23, 2020 6:38 pm
Seems a bit extreme to me. There are examples of battles where elephant corps, so to speak, suffered heavy casualties, and it didn't break. And fighting against humans armed with all the tools to scare an animal. I understand an animal can run amok due to extreme pain (although animals are incomparably more resilient to pain, than we are) or fear induced by things it sees for the first time and is not used to seeing. But I'd argue such fear can only be induced by people, not by other animals, so when fighting infantry, not other elephants.

What are these examples?

When two Elephant units fight the elephants aren't just fighting against other elephants though. There are also the drivers (mahouts), the crews and often small teams of supporting infantrymen whose job was to guard the elephants legs. Elephants don't want to fight, they didn't care about the political objectives at stake, and had to be encouraged or forced to attack the enemy. Once they started to panic, or when their driver was killed they just fled, and nothing could stop them.

cheers

Paul

Elephants were made more expensive because experienced players considered them too cheap before - I think they were at 54 points? They are very good units, but highly situational. If you manage to screen them from missile fire, they do very well. Against pikes and spears, if the elephants do not charge, but let the enemy charge them, they will be at a great advantage at Impact, anyway. But yes, fighting pikemen and high quality heavy infantry is bad for elephants. That seems right based on what I've read.

Instead, their main uses are to fight/disorder enemy cavalry, and charge and break squishier low quality infantry. They work particularly well at breaking up enemy Lancer formations, which cannot evade, and protecting Massed Archers from cavalry charges.

They are also deadly if mixed in with friendly cavalry against hostile medium cavalry. Elephants have trouble with medium cavalry as they, unlike lancers, can retreat and evade out the way, and the elephants are highly unlikely to catch them. Your own cavalry, on the other hand, may or may not be able to beat the enemy medium cavalry, but they can catch them and force an engagement. Mixing the two units together in a :cavalry::cavalry: line creates a situation where the enemy's cavalry will be more seriously disordered than your own, and so your cavalry, which will be able to engage the enemy cavalry, will be at an advantage and will probably win the engagement, at which point they can finish off any cavalry that are trapped in the ZOC of the elephants. The opponent is forced to either break up their cavalry line and take drastic evasive action, or divert infantry from the infantry fight to help.

Some counters to this are screening the cavalry force with cheap infantry that can hold the elephants in place (allowing the cavalry to manoeuvre behind), using javelins and bows to disrupt the elephants (though this can be unreliable as most experienced players screen their elephants) or bringing a strong anti-elephant unit (like your pikes) over early to engage and destroy the annoying pachyderms. For this reason, a player deploying mixed cavalry-elephant formations may opt to leave some space between their force and the infantry lines to prevent the infantry from interfering too readily.

Such a formation is inevitably expensive, but a potentially battle-winning force, as elephants can also deal with a lot of the weaknesses cavalry run into on their own (like being blocked by a cheap unit of infantry). Look after it.

Ludendorf wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 9:23 pm They are also deadly if mixed in with friendly cavalry against hostile medium cavalry. Elephants have trouble with medium cavalry as they, unlike lancers, can retreat and evade out the way, and the elephants are highly unlikely to catch them. Your own cavalry, on the other hand, may or may not be able to beat the enemy medium cavalry, but they can catch them and force an engagement. Mixing the two units together in a :cavalry::cavalry: line creates a situation where the enemy's cavalry will be more seriously disordered than your own, and so your cavalry, which will be able to engage the enemy cavalry, will be at an advantage and will probably win the engagement, at which point they can finish off any cavalry that are trapped in the ZOC of the elephants. The opponent is forced to either break up their cavalry line and take drastic evasive action, or divert infantry from the infantry fight to help.

Some counters to this are screening the cavalry force with cheap infantry that can hold the elephants in place (allowing the cavalry to manoeuvre behind), using javelins and bows to disrupt the elephants (though this can be unreliable as most experienced players screen their elephants) or bringing a strong anti-elephant unit (like your pikes) over early to engage and destroy the annoying pachyderms. For this reason, a player deploying mixed cavalry-elephant formations may opt to leave some space between their force and the infantry lines to prevent the infantry from interfering too readily.

Such a formation is inevitably expensive, but a potentially battle-winning force, as elephants can also deal with a lot of the weaknesses cavalry run into on their own (like being blocked by a cheap unit of infantry). Look after it.

Excellent analysis!! I don't feel good when i see these units in the enemy lines and most of the times i didn't choose them in the deployment phase. So, at the beginning of the match, i am in worst position, than my opponent. This analysis lead me to reconsider my choices.

Which is the Win percentage of pikes in the Impact Phase against elephants?