Slitherine

How can we better prevent our anti-aircraft units running out of ammunition? That must be the reason why they aren't firing in defence.

If they're running out of ammo then they are firing in defence?

Horseman wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 3:44 pm If they're running out of ammo then they are firing in defence?

They eventually stop firing. The first plane gets hit, but the next are left alone. Sometimes they don't fire at all.

uneducated wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 4:11 pm

Horseman wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 3:44 pm If they're running out of ammo then they are firing in defence?

They eventually stop firing. The first plane gets hit, but the next are left alone. Sometimes they don't fire at all.

Reasons AA won't fire:
1) They've used up all their ammo.
2) They're out of range.
3) They're fully suppressed.
4) You've had them in AT mode.
5) You have found a bug.

It's probably one of 1-4. But 5 is a possibility.

Horseman wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 4:21 pm

uneducated wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 4:11 pm

Horseman wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 3:44 pm If they're running out of ammo then they are firing in defence?

They eventually stop firing. The first plane gets hit, but the next are left alone. Sometimes they don't fire at all.

Reasons AA won't fire:
1) They've used up all their ammo.
2) They're out of range.
3) They're fully suppressed.
4) You've had them in AT mode.
5) You have found a bug.

It's probably one of 1-4. But 5 is a possibility.

Suppressed! Maybe that might have been it, though no ammo is most likely. Does anybody have tips for Ack Ack, other than putting them on a hill for greater range? Most of their effect seems to be suppression.

Unless you pick AA veteran trait they'll mostly deal suppression.

If an enemy plane attacks in their range any suppression they cause will still be there on your turn. So another blast from the AA and suddenly that enemy air unit is a lot easier to shoot down with your fighters.

I have noticed that the AI likes to use artillery on your AA guns before sending in a air attack. So my guess would be suppression. Click on your AA unit and check, or see if there is a blue number in its panel on the bottom that represents suppressed strength

In some games (can't remember which), small-calibre AA guns such as 20mm can only engage low-flying aircraft (fighters and light bombers), but won't fire at anything flying at medium altitude (tac bombers) or high altitude (strategic bombers).
It makes good realistic sense, so perhaps if AA guns in PC2 sometimes won't fire, it's because the plane is too high?

PoorOldSpike wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 12:49 am In some games (can't remember which), small-calibre AA guns such as 20mm can only engage low-flying aircraft (fighters and light bombers), but won't fire at anything flying at medium altitude (tac bombers) or high altitude (strategic bombers).
It makes good realistic sense, so perhaps if AA guns in PC2 sometimes won't fire, it's because the plane is too high?

I don't think that's a mechanic in PC2.

PoorOldSpike wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 12:49 am It makes good realistic sense, so perhaps if AA guns in PC2 sometimes won't fire, it's because the plane is too high?

They fire, they just rarely hit anything. AA guns are not effective against heavy bombers, in exchange a heavy bomber can only hit a tank with a statistical probability. This is why the allies bombed Germany in 44-45 with hundreds of heavy bombers - the Germans had not enough fighters to cause significant losses, and AA-s were just ineffective.

adiekmann wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 11:03 pm I have noticed that the AI likes to use artillery on your AA guns before sending in a air attack. So my guess would be suppression. Click on your AA unit and check, or see if there is a blue number in its panel on the bottom that represents suppressed strength

Likewise, using your own artillery on enemy heavy AA is essential if you want to "open the door" for your own air attacks in the area being defended by that AA. I admit that I have barely used AA myself, preferring more aircraft, but as the campaign progresses and I no doubt end up of the defensive more and more often I'm sure I'll be buying some to suppress attacking enemy aircraft to make them easier (and less costly to my own air units in terms of damage) to shoot down.

Horseman wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 8:05 am

PoorOldSpike wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 12:49 am In some games (can't remember which), small-calibre AA guns such as 20mm can only engage low-flying aircraft (fighters and light bombers), but won't fire at anything flying at medium altitude (tac bombers) or high altitude (strategic bombers).
It makes good realistic sense, so perhaps if AA guns in PC2 sometimes won't fire, it's because the plane is too high?

I don't think that's a mechanic in PC2.

Not 100% sure but i think the bigger AA is more effective against high altitude and smaller is more effective with the low fliers. Both have an effect on both types though. DONT ASK ME FOR THE MATHS!

Schlack wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 2:32 pm

Horseman wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 8:05 am

PoorOldSpike wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 12:49 am In some games (can't remember which), small-calibre AA guns such as 20mm can only engage low-flying aircraft (fighters and light bombers), but won't fire at anything flying at medium altitude (tac bombers) or high altitude (strategic bombers).
It makes good realistic sense, so perhaps if AA guns in PC2 sometimes won't fire, it's because the plane is too high?

I don't think that's a mechanic in PC2.

Not 100% sure but i think the bigger AA is more effective against high altitude and smaller is more effective with the low fliers. Both have an effect on both types though. DONT ASK ME FOR THE MATHS!

That's to do with attack and defence stats. Also traits.

Strat bombers tend to have higher "ground defence" and even with rapid fire the lighter guns go "ding" so you're better off with the big guns.

Whilst against lower flying targets more shots (via rapid fire) of the lighter guns are more effective than the big guns. The 88s massive air attack is overkill whilst the lighter guns air attack is good enough for decent chance to kill/suppress but with rapid fire they get more shots.

And if firing in support of a ground unit being bombed many of the smaller guns get to shoot at low level aircrafts close defence stat which is lower and therefore do even better again!

This last part was bugged and didn't work until patch 3 (I think it was that patch)

Horseman wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 4:21 pm

uneducated wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 4:11 pm

Horseman wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 3:44 pm If they're running out of ammo then they are firing in defence?

They eventually stop firing. The first plane gets hit, but the next are left alone. Sometimes they don't fire at all.

Reasons AA won't fire:
1) They've used up all their ammo.
2) They're out of range.
3) They're fully suppressed.
4) You've had them in AT mode.
5) You have found a bug.

It's probably one of 1-4. But 5 is a possibility.

This is a great summary. One more to add: inclement weather. You can't see the things to hit them.

PoorOldSpike wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 12:49 am In some games (can't remember which), small-calibre AA guns such as 20mm can only engage low-flying aircraft (fighters and light bombers), but won't fire at anything flying at medium altitude (tac bombers) or high altitude (strategic bombers).
It makes good realistic sense, so perhaps if AA guns in PC2 sometimes won't fire, it's because the plane is too high?

This ought to be a mechanic, if it isn't already.

uneducated wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 8:07 pm

Horseman wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 4:21 pm

uneducated wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 4:11 pm

They eventually stop firing. The first plane gets hit, but the next are left alone. Sometimes they don't fire at all.

Reasons AA won't fire:
1) They've used up all their ammo.
2) They're out of range.
3) They're fully suppressed.
4) You've had them in AT mode.
5) You have found a bug.

It's probably one of 1-4. But 5 is a possibility.

Suppressed! Maybe that might have been it, though no ammo is most likely. Does anybody have tips for Ack Ack, other than putting them on a hill for greater range? Most of their effect seems to be suppression.

Mod them. AAA is too weak I think. I've increased their Air Attack values by 12 across the board, and am much happier with the end product.

AA UNITS
These are the vanilla 1.1.0 units and I've only shown their most important stats, namely their attack strength against planes (yellow number), and the ones with 3 hex range (red number 3). All the rest are 2 hex range.

GERMAN




RUSSIAN




USA




BRIT

PoorOldSpike wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 10:32 pm These are the vanilla units and I've only shown their most important stats, namely their attack strength against planes (yellow number), and the ones with 3 hex range (red number 3). All the rest are 2 hex range.

If you are looking to use them for AT purposes perhaps, but otherwise the Rapid Fire and Low Altitude Attack traits are more important than firepower and range, as aircraft have no close defense and tactical bombers are generally far more of a threat than strategic. This makes the Sherman Skink my favourite dedicated AA as it's fully tracked (good in winter conditions), has both traits (including Rapid Fire 2X), decent firepower and only costs 2 core slots.

SineMora wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 10:49 pm If you are looking to use them for AT purposes perhaps, but otherwise the Rapid Fire and Low Altitude Attack traits are more important than firepower and range, as aircraft have no close defense and tactical bombers are generally far more of a threat than strategic. This makes the Sherman Skink my favourite dedicated AA as it's fully tracked (good in winter conditions), has both traits (including Rapid Fire 2X), decent firepower and only costs 2 core slots.

We all have our own favourite unit preferences and traits, for example I rate Nurse Chapel's traits very highly, whereas Spock doesn't seem to be interested in her at all, huh there's bleddy Vulcans for you..

PoorOldSpike wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 10:32 pm AA UNITS
These are the vanilla 1.1.0 units and I've only shown their most important stats, namely their attack strength against planes (yellow number), and the ones with 3 hex range (red number 3). All the rest are 2 hex range.

You should also note some of the important traits like which ones get to access close defense or ones with rapid fire. Like the Sdkfz 7/1 gets to access close defense of aircarft with that trait also (fighters and tac bombers) and with rapid fire it makes that unit invaluable in suppressing enemy fighters.

And on the topic of AA in general I really prefer to have an 88 and a rapid fire AA paired together to maximize what they can deal with since the AA is able to decently suppress strategic bombers and the 3 range makes them able to cover a more open area. While the rapid fire has less range but trades that off for often being able to suppress 5+ points from fighters and tact bombers that come in range of it. Obviously truck mounted ones will overall be more useful since they can zip around the battlefield as needed to provide some AA cover where it's badly needed (such as when you breakthrough an enemy line and shove several tanks through that gap).

Edit: JUst realized this was mentioned above right after I posted this :/
Ah well I think it is still important to mention because those traits really can affect the worth of various units