Slitherine

I am playing a game right now and my opponent has brought 10 javelin cavalry and he has 6-7 skirmisher units. It just seems a bit gamey to me. I play a lot of Total War games and in the Rome Total War multiplayer games you had a set amount of units that you could take (like max 4 javelin cav or something like that).

Obviously, a skirmisher army needs to have the right tools to do its job. But 10 javelin cavalry just seems excessive and it doesn't make for a very enjoyable battle. Maybe we could talk about counters and knowing what Carthage could field...

SLancaster's opponent here.

It is worth noting that I am playing the Hannibal in Africa list with Numidian allies. Hannibal in Africa does not normally have access to quite so many javelin horse, but as I was afforded the chance to bring a swarm of these excellent harassment units, I opted to do so. I believe my opponent is using the Pyrrhic list with Samnite allies.

To explain the situation in brief, I went heavily into medium infantry, while Lancaster is rocking a full phalanx force with a smaller medium contingent. This means that he can dominate most of the field, while my army is restricted mainly to the smaller patches of rough ground in the centre of the map. Complicating the situation for him is the fact that I have taken the aforementioned swarm of light infantry, and have opted to take a light cavalry detachment on both flanks instead of medium cavalry and elephants who would either have been too expensive (leaving me with no chance in the infantry engagement) or would have been inadequate to stop his (if uncontested) dangerous cavalry.

The situation is problematic to Lancaster because his medium cavalry and lancers (which are a small but significant part of his army) are having difficulty catching and defending themselves from my light horse, which are swarming and wearing them down. Now, I spent about as many points (240) as he spent on his medium horse and lancers. In fact, I seem to have spent more on my cavalry, so I would expect to have an advantage there. I personally also feel that the cavalry battle here is of negligible importance, as the main composition of both armies is infantry, and my light cavalry can only do so much damage before melee is joined, javelin cavalry tending to struggle to inflict significant losses to adequately protected infantry.

My foot skirmishers have an advantage, but they aren't going to stop his army on their own. They can only apply pressure, and I can't stop his army from attacking me. I can only try to deploy in a manner that makes life difficult for his phalanxes. The long story short is I do not feel my skirmishers give me an insurmountable advantage. What may be having a more negative influence on the battle is the fact that I have been forced to take a very defensive posture on ground that is not suited to most of Lancaster's army. I was expecting him to bring a much stronger wing of medium infantry, but he opted to leave most of the Samnites at home, and so we're in this awkward situation where I cannot attack him on the open ground and he will have difficulty engaging me effectively on the rough. This, I believe, is the crux of the matter. The battle is young, so we're still manoeuvring around each other. I may be able to take a more offensive posture if I see an opportunity.

I'll try to grab a screenshot next time so people can see the exact situation.)

I don't think you have any regular cavalry? I mean.. wouldn't a 'real' Classical army have a little bit of cavalry and not just a swarm of javelin cavalry? This is why it seems quite gamey and not so historical or enjoyable.

Most FoG 2 armies can only field 3-4 javelin cavalry units max. I just think that 10 is quite excessive as I mentioned above.

Update: On looking again maybe we just have bad match-ups. He will try to keep away from my pikes and just run around with his javelin cavalry. I spent money on pikes so maybe I have spammed, too. Let's see what happens..

Hmm...

I suppose you could mandate that a Hannibal in Africa player takes at least one unit of Noble Cavalry. That would leave a player with a 44 point mandatory investment and force them to at least consider their medium arm. Historically, the Numidians did rely heavily on light javelin cavalry; they were famous for it and it was these light horsemen that the Carthaginians recruited. And they were used independently on the flanks without heavy cavalry support, usually to distract and delay enemy cavalry and prevent them from interfering with the rest of the battle. Bringing a horde of them and them alone would have been unusual, but I don't think it would have been impossible. Especially in Africa, where they would be the easiest type of cavalry to muster.

As for enjoyment... I acknowledge that light horse can be difficult to respond to if your own light foot are outnumbered. They are almost impossible to catch unless the player using them approaches regular cavalry from the front, can seriously damage cavalry if ignored, and can delay enemy cavalry if they manage to pull off a successful charge into the rear of them. On the other hand, they struggle to actually drive enemy cavalry off the field unless they take risks, and the regular cavalry then have a good chance of catching a unit of them and revenging themselves. If a unit of armoured cavalry can catch and destroy two units of javelin cavalry, they have more than revenged themselves, even if they are then broken and driven off the field. On top of this, the medium cavalry can always opt to tank the strikes from the javelin cavalry and just carry on until they find an open flank. I've made that difficult here, but it is possible to just bull straight through enemy skirmisher fire and win the battle regardless. I don't think it is broken on its own per se, and I consider dealing with enemy skirmishers to be part of the game's challenge.

Remember that this is also not the regular Hannibal in Africa list, but that list with Numidian allies. Normally, HiA can only muster 5 javelin cavalry.

Ludendorf wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 12:11 am It is worth noting that I am playing the Hannibal in Africa list with Numidian allies. Hannibal in Africa does not normally have access to quite so many javelin horse, but as I was afforded the chance to bring a swarm of these excellent harassment units, I opted to do so.

Sorry, what does this mean...allies?

76mm wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 2:16 am Sorry, what does this mean...allies?

You can modify a list now by selecting an allied army to accompany you. This changes your army composition slightly, allowing you to recruit some of the units from the ally's list as well as your own. So my list can mainly recruit Carthaginian units, including their regular Numidian auxilliaries, but can also access some Numidian units.

The Numidians' deployment of masses of light javelin horse is historical... though probably not enjoyable to be on the receiving end of, especially if you don't have the right army composition to deal with. It's the same thing as fighting Parthians, really.

SnuggleBunnies wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 4:41 am The Numidians' deployment of masses of light javelin horse is historical... though probably not enjoyable to be on the receiving end of, especially if you don't have the right army composition to deal with. It's the same thing as fighting Parthians, really.

Right but they are allies it is not a Numidian army that I am facing! It is a Carthaginian army with Numidian allies...

SLancaster wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 5:06 am

SnuggleBunnies wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 4:41 am The Numidians' deployment of masses of light javelin horse is historical... though probably not enjoyable to be on the receiving end of, especially if you don't have the right army composition to deal with. It's the same thing as fighting Parthians, really.

Right but they are allies it is not a Numidian army that I am facing! It is a Carthaginian army with Numidian allies...

The Numidian list allows for up to 17 Javelin LH so having an allied contingent of 5 or 6 doesn't seem unreasonable, unhistorical or gamey to me, unless you are choosing to define 'gamey' as 'selecting units I don't like'

Don't get me wrong, swarms of LF/LH can be extremely frustrating especially when you have no direct counter.

keyth wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 6:35 am

SLancaster wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 5:06 am

SnuggleBunnies wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 4:41 am The Numidians' deployment of masses of light javelin horse is historical... though probably not enjoyable to be on the receiving end of, especially if you don't have the right army composition to deal with. It's the same thing as fighting Parthians, really.

Right but they are allies it is not a Numidian army that I am facing! It is a Carthaginian army with Numidian allies...

The Numidian list allows for up to 17 Javelin LH so having an allied contingent of 5 or 6 doesn't seem unreasonable, unhistorical or gamey to me, unless you are choosing to define 'gamey' as 'selecting units I don't like'

Don't get me wrong, swarms of LF/LH can be extremely frustrating especially when you have no direct counter.

Agreed. An allied contingent of 5-6 javelin horse doesn’t seem unreasonable to me, either. But, he has 10..

SLancaster wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 6:47 am

keyth wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 6:35 am

SLancaster wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 5:06 am

Right but they are allies it is not a Numidian army that I am facing! It is a Carthaginian army with Numidian allies...

The Numidian list allows for up to 17 Javelin LH so having an allied contingent of 5 or 6 doesn't seem unreasonable, unhistorical or gamey to me, unless you are choosing to define 'gamey' as 'selecting units I don't like'

Don't get me wrong, swarms of LF/LH can be extremely frustrating especially when you have no direct counter.

Agreed. An allied contingent of 5-6 javelin horse doesn’t seem unreasonable to me, either. But, he has 10..

He can get 4 or 5 from his base list so the allied contingent is only 5 or 6...

One way to counter an army with lots of light horse is to pick as many light and medium units as you can from your list, spread out in a line across the map so they can't get past you and walk forward. Numidians have the following record in the Digital League:

Numidian or Moorish (341-56BC) 0-0-0
Numidian or Moorish (55 BC-6AD) 1-0-8

Supports what Ludendorf said, they can frustrate but unlikely to determine the outcome of the main battle.

You can check in the deployment phase the enemy army list. So, if it has many skirmishers, you should pick more flexible units like medium and light troops. Too many pikes are useless. Choose all the light troops (they are cheap) and cavalry. With the rest of the points, choose the medium and heavy units.

GeneralKostas wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 10:11 am You can check in the deployment phase the enemy army list.

hmmm, I've always wanted to do this, how do you do it?

Is there an option to turn off selection of allies when setting up MP games? Frankly when setting up MP games I like to have some kind of general idea what kind of army I'll be facing, rather than finding one transformed by selection of allied units (one of the main points being to avoid horsey-shooty armies, which I don't find fun to play against, especially with a foot army).

76mm wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 3:31 pm hmmm, I've always wanted to do this, how do you do it?

Is there an option to turn off selection of allies when setting up MP games? Frankly when setting up MP games I like to have some kind of general idea what kind of army I'll be facing, rather than finding one transformed by selection of allied units (one of the main points being to avoid horsey-shooty armies, which I don't find fun to play against, especially with a foot army).

There's a button next to where you accept your own army composition that lets you preview your enemy's army list:



It took me a while to find that, but it's quite useful.

Side note, how do you do an MP challenge where the opponent can select their army? I thought that whoever set up the challenge picked both armies, I didn't know there was an option to let the opponent select.

rs2excelsior wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 4:30 pm

76mm wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 3:31 pm hmmm, I've always wanted to do this, how do you do it?

Is there an option to turn off selection of allies when setting up MP games? Frankly when setting up MP games I like to have some kind of general idea what kind of army I'll be facing, rather than finding one transformed by selection of allied units (one of the main points being to avoid horsey-shooty armies, which I don't find fun to play against, especially with a foot army).

There's a button next to where you accept your own army composition that lets you preview your enemy's army list:



It took me a while to find that, but it's quite useful.

Side note, how do you do an MP challenge where the opponent can select their army? I thought that whoever set up the challenge picked both armies, I didn't know there was an option to let the opponent select.

Don't think you can so if you end up playing an army or army with allies you don't like it's either because you set it up that way, you chose a challenge with that set up or you went pot luck and that was the luck of the draw.

rs2excelsior wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 4:30 pm Side note, how do you do an MP challenge where the opponent can select their army? I thought that whoever set up the challenge picked both armies, I didn't know there was an option to let the opponent select.

Yeah, don't think you can let your opponent pick the base army, but AFAIK he can pick his army's allies, which can sometimes change his army's composition significantly.

76mm wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 4:58 pm

rs2excelsior wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 4:30 pm Side note, how do you do an MP challenge where the opponent can select their army? I thought that whoever set up the challenge picked both armies, I didn't know there was an option to let the opponent select.

Yeah, don't think you can let your opponent pick the base army, but AFAIK he can pick his army's allies, which can sometimes change his army's composition significantly.

As Cromlechi stated above, the person whom issues the challenge selects both base armies and Allies ( or lack thereof) for BOTH players. Allies are displayed in the details when you look for challenges to accept.

I'll save everyone some time here and say that I didn't choose the allied army. It was selected for me and I just accepted the game as normal.

Ludendorf wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 6:36 pm I'll save everyone some time here and say that I didn't choose the allied army. It was selected for me and I just accepted the game as normal.

Ahh, so your opponent bribed the Numidians to fight for YOUR side, clerical error perhaps by his scribe