Slitherine

How would people feel about Velites, Thracian peltasts and Greek peltasts being upgraded to 50% Swordsmen capability, to improve their role as skirmisher hunters? This would of course also affect their points cost, which would increase by 3.

I like it.

Sounds good to me! Peltasts were valued mercenary type in Greek world so making them more clearly superior to the usual light infantry seems justified.

Go for it.

Thracian peltasts were very good againts other light troops in melee, they carried curved swords also, so this seems logical, I'm for it.

I have two concerns:

1 - Price. Unless the price is brought back down by reducing their armor, I think 33 points is too much to pay for any light infantry unit. At that price I'd rather do my skirmisher hunting with a mix of light javelinmen and irregular foot.

2 - Unintended side effects. How will this effect their interaction against heavier troops? Will they be able to beat massed archers in melee in the woods? Are they going to be more likely to stand and fight if charged by heavy infantry while standing in rough terrain?

pompeytheflatulent wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 2:37 pm I have two concerns:

1 - Price. Unless the price is brought back down by reducing their armor, I think 33 points is too much to pay for any light infantry unit. At that price I'd rather do my skirmisher hunting with a mix of light javelinmen and irregular foot.

2 - Unintended side effects. How will this effect their interaction against heavier troops? Will they be able to beat massed archers in melee in the woods? Are they going to be more likely to stand and fight if charged by heavy infantry while standing in rough terrain?

I like the idea but I too think they will be terrors in melee for heavies etc in rough, will hold ground and lock cavalry in melee for way too long...

I prefer cheap skirmishers.

melm wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 3:52 pm I prefer cheap skirmishers.

Aren't affordable skirmishers rather well represented and widely available even if velite and peltast were made a bit more unique? Light infantry is the least varied troop category in the game with the same three units being used by almost every list.

I wouldn't mind if velite/peltast armor was returned to protected level though. The 50% swordsmen ability would have more noticeable impact on melee (I think?) and better highlight the "heavier" nature of peltast/velite. The small armor advantage tends to disappear very quickly when fighting light infantry.

I'm not too worried about 50% swordsmen skirmishers performing too well against non-light units. Peltasts holding for a while against infantry in a forest or difficult slope doesn't sound that outrageous to me either. They would still lose to attrition in any extended fight.

pompeytheflatulent wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 2:37 pm I have two concerns:

1 - Price. Unless the price is brought back down by reducing their armor, I think 33 points is too much to pay for any light infantry unit. At that price I'd rather do my skirmisher hunting with a mix of light javelinmen and irregular foot.

You can still do so. The earlier Republican Roman lists have those instead of velites.

2 - Unintended side effects. How will this effect their interaction against heavier troops? Will they be able to beat massed archers in melee in the woods? Are they going to be more likely to stand and fight if charged by heavy infantry while standing in rough terrain?

I agree, that is what needs play-testing. However, you ask these questions as if they should not be able to do these things, and I suspect they still won't. The question however, is whether they should in fact be able to do them to some extent - better than they can now.

melm wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 3:52 pm I prefer cheap skirmishers.

Indeed, and would still be able to have them, except for Romans in a narrow period from 219-106 BC (The 280-220 BC Romans have normal light javelinmen).

MVP7 wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:21 pm I wouldn't mind if velite/peltast armor was returned to protected level though. The 50% swordsmen ability would have more noticeable impact on melee (I think?) and better highlight the "heavier" nature of peltast/velite. The small armor advantage tends to disappear very quickly when fighting light infantry.

I presume you mean Unprotected, they are already Protected.

That would probably make them too cost-effective, as they would actually be cheaper than they are now.

I guess they could become Lightly Protected with Swordsmen 50%. (Like Irregular Foot, and with much the same logic).

That would leave them costing 30 points, but give them +62 POA in melee vs other lights, instead of the current +25 POA.

Against Massed Archers they would have +62 POA in melee, but 50% Combat strength disadvantage, which more than compensates.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:35 pm However, you ask these questions as if they should not be able to do these things, and I suspect they still won't. The question however, is whether they should in fact be able to do them to some extent - better than they can now.

That's exactly what I was about to write.
I like the idea of more expansive and more skilled LF.
And I like the idea of LF being more efficient versus non-light troops, on their dedicated terrains (rough and difficult).

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:43 pm

MVP7 wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:21 pm I wouldn't mind if velite/peltast armor was returned to protected level though. The 50% swordsmen ability would have more noticeable impact on melee (I think?) and better highlight the "heavier" nature of peltast/velite. The small armor advantage tends to disappear very quickly when fighting light infantry.

I presume you mean Unprotected, they are already Protected.

That would probably make them too cost-effective, as they would actually be cheaper than they are now.

I guess they could become Lightly Protected with Swordsmen 50%. (Like Irregular Foot, and with much the same logic).

That would leave them costing 30 points, but give them +62 POA in melee vs other lights, instead of the current +25 POA.

Yeah, sorry, I meant unprotected but lightly protected sounds more balanced indeed (personally I think I'd get them even if they remained protected). The +62 POA sounds good as well. The current +25 armor POA isn't that high in the first place and tends to quickly disappear with one or two missile salvos or slightly unlucky impact/melee rolls.

Beyond western and greek lights, are there other lights among the eastern or barbarian armies which might deserve some upgrading? Just curious.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:35 pm

pompeytheflatulent wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 2:37 pm 2 - Unintended side effects. How will this effect their interaction against heavier troops? Will they be able to beat massed archers in melee in the woods? Are they going to be more likely to stand and fight if charged by heavy infantry while standing in rough terrain?

I agree, that is what needs play-testing. However, you ask these questions as if they should not be able to do these things, and I suspect they still won't. The question however, is whether they should in fact be able to do them to some extent - better than they can now.

I have witnessed instances of velites in rough ground choosing to not evade charging raw heavy foot, and get ground down in melee afterwards as a result. I'm concerned that giving them 50% swordsmen might actually make them worse at their job by greatly increasing instances where they get stuck in melee against heavier troops.

30 points for lightly protected/50% swordsmen seems fine.

On the side note, it feels like armor pricing is a bit off (in this case at least) - as for the same price you get +37,5 melee POA while only loosing some shooting mitigation (pretty sure it still would take the same number of volleys to cause a cohesion test on average).

Other similar case is brythonic foot (lightly protected, 100% swordsmen) compared to massed peltasts (protected, 50% swordsmen) - both cost 33 points, but one is clearly superior to other.

If Heavy Foot troops are foolish enough to attack Light troops in rough terrain or woods then they deserve what they get - that is what Medium Foot is for.

Diversifying the Light Unit list sounds great to me, options make the game richer.

Sounds good!

pompeytheflatulent wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 5:45 pm I have witnessed instances of velites in rough ground choosing to not evade charging raw heavy foot, and get ground down in melee afterwards as a result.

It also happens with plain light archers (without Impact capability).
The melee won't last long though.