Slitherine

Was it necessary? Hell no!
Am I having a blast? Hell yes!

Duedman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:30 pm Was it necessary? Hell no!
Am I having a blast? Hell yes!

Very impressive

Really, PC1 counters&map felt better: here we see the combat of red and green squares...
True counters were far more nice.

ErissN6 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:34 pm Really, PC1 counters&map felt better: here we see the combat of red and green squares...
True counters were far more nice.

At that zoom out level I don't think PC1 would have looked much better to be honest.

Horseman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:54 pm

ErissN6 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:34 pm Really, PC1 counters&map felt better: here we see the combat of red and green squares...
True counters were far more nice.

At that zoom out level I don't think PC1 would have looked much better to be honest.

Yep. And while I too dislike the blurry 3D graphics you can get used to it.

And the new encirclement mechanic alone makes up for that and much more. Its real fun.


Oh: And bare in mind that this screenshot is maximum zoomed out to show the encirclement. No one plays that way....

ErissN6 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:34 pm Really, PC1 counters&map felt better: here we see the combat of red and green squares...
True counters were far more nice.

I don't think the PC1 counters did much to distinguish themselves from the map and they often just ended up being gray blobs that are unreadable.

panzeh wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 5:59 pm I don't think the PC1 counters did much to distinguish themselves from the map and they often just ended up being gray blobs that are unreadable.

PC1 has no ability to zoom in or out even by one degree. I think PzC2 is fantastic for allowing far out zooming to see so much, as well as being able to zoom in all the way and get insane beautiful unit model detail.

Back on topic:

Very huge encirclement. Maybe that's what they should have done historically. Instead of attacking the salient directly, just pinch it off.

I thought that was more or less the original plan: pinch the salient off and reduce it in order to shorten the front line, but it was a trap since the soviets had concentrated like 90% of their armor there for their own counterattack on the Orel salient, once the German assault on Kursk failed.

I am wondering if you use (and spilt) really cheap units like buckenpioneers you can just go around the edge of the map and lock the whole map in.

11 turns and you've effectively killed most of their forces, enabled the ability to convert them into prestige and/or free experience and you won't take retaliation damage because they can't fight back.

The more of these feats I see the more crazy the encirclement system feels to me. Don't get me wrong I love the game, but I don't like the idea that you can just "kill" the enemy this way, take very limited if any damage doing it and convert everything they own into money effortlessly once your done. The first turn the circle is in place, they are basically already dead. It seems much too strong.

I think encircling the whole map usually is not possible (due to supply points) or not worthwhile (due to few enemies in the edges).
The mechanic is veryvery strong tho.
I think the main goal of the game is not to give one evened out enddifficulty for the few super hardcore players.
It is to create a joyful experience which it does really well.
People can play without heroes and traits and randomness in ironman if they want. But most people do not want this in my opinion.

There are some combinations of course, that would still be fun if they got nerfed a bit.
Deadly Grasp for example could just "tick" 50% in the enemy's round and the bonus 50% at the start of players turn. So the enemy would at least have 1 round at 80% to shoot back.
Main problem with huge encirclements is the AI anyway - and that I think can not be fixed.
In Kursk for example (spoiler haha) there are 2 major counter offensives. But if you avoid to trigger them you have no problems capturing the cauldron. While 2 hordes of enemies outside the kessel just sit tight. I triggered them just for fun and the aux forces in the north had a hard time.
If the AI isnt fixable, maybe the map triggers could get some extra what-ifs.

A thing that can be real fun at first actually lowers the fun for me tho.
And that is silly hero combinations. Edmon had this super oneshot unit with denied access to close defense (no retaliation wouldve been good as well) which I guess started to get old pretty fast. It turns the game upside down. You just explore the map like a tourist shooting everything left right and center. On Generalissimus....
I got a doubleshot and a rapidfire hero. Now Gustav instagibs 2 units per round with insane range. Making every enemy fortification instantly vulnerable by sniping the Flak / AT.
I really wish I did not have that. But now that I got it, I cannot bring myself not to use it...

I have played the first two missions of barbarossa center yesterday in my second playthrough and the encirclements you can do there are really cool, especially kiev. I hope we see more of those missions in later dlcs, because building encirclements is really fun. Although it would be better if the ai actually tried to break the encirclement. I captured (with trophies of war) 36 kv-2, 36 t34, 16 kv-1/40s, 18 t-50s and a shitload of useless artillery, anti-air and anti-tank in those two scenarios.

Duedman wrote: ↑Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:30 pm Was it necessary? Hell no!
Am I having a blast? Hell yes!

Kursk surrounded.jpg

In reality the russians would have laughed about your super weak encirclement. They just would have broke out and or annihilate the encirclement. (not to mention the tank divisions they hold in reserve for such problems...)

If you develop new game mechanics, you always have to develop a new ai, that can use it. And that sentence alone is the big big problem in nowadays game development, because we arent capable it seems, to program good gaming ai. (with the exception of machine learning, but thats only good in more or less simple games with less variables then panzer corps or even civilization - thats why they use it for star craft like rts games)

Two solutions maybe:

• At least the ai should always try to break out and fight. Thats easily done, just need a script that changes units to attack, when encircled.

• There should be different kinds of encirclements:
  Thight ones, with a complete surrounding of the enemy and not so thight ones, like the one in the screenshot above. The second one shouldnt deny them all supply, only some.

: If you develop new game mechanics, you always have to develop a new ai, that can use it. :

THIS!

One of the worst examples was Civ 6 where new mechanics were just for human players, while AI was not using half of it. It felt like playing Sim City.

funat wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:57 am : If you develop new game mechanics, you always have to develop a new ai, that can use it. :

THIS!

One of the worst examples was Civ 6 where new mechanics were just for human players, while AI was not using half of it. It felt like playing Sim City.

The civ series was my favorite game franchise. I still love part V, with mods its a great game, even the ai is much better. But part six was a major step back, regarding ai. And the company didnt listen to the fans, who demanded better ai for next part. So we got even worse ai, for new game mechanics, that the ai doesnt use. At least not in a smart way. So i didnt buy that part till today, because multiplayer is so hard to organize. 8 players that dont cheat or quit and have muuuuuch time ??? Forget it. And in single player you play ag. an artificial idiot that stays passiv most time, he even didnt attack when he had planes and i didnt. In part V youre gone without chance in such a situation, in part VI .... nothing happened.

Its time to realize for the companies that AI DOES MATTER. Bad ai results often in no buy.

o_t_d_x wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:32 pm

funat wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:57 am : If you develop new game mechanics, you always have to develop a new ai, that can use it. :

THIS!

One of the worst examples was Civ 6 where new mechanics were just for human players, while AI was not using half of it. It felt like playing Sim City.

The civ series was my favorite game franchise. I still love part V, with mods its a great game, even the ai is much better. But part six was a major step back, regarding ai. And the company didnt listen to the fans, who demanded better ai for next part. So we got even worse ai, for new game mechanics, that the ai doesnt use. At least not in a smart way. So i didnt buy that part till today, because multiplayer is so hard to organize. 8 players that dont cheat or quit and have muuuuuch time ??? Forget it. And in single player you play ag. an artificial idiot that stays passiv most time, he even didnt attack when he had planes and i didnt. In part V youre gone without chance in such a situation, in part VI .... nothing happened.

Its time to realize for the companies that AI DOES MATTER. Bad ai results often in no buy.

But Civ 5 was also a shit game in comparison to everything that came before. They need to get rid of one unit per tile. And if a game needs multiple dlcs and mods to make it great, then it is not great.

pewp3w wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:29 pm
But Civ 5 was also a shit game in comparison to everything that came before. They need to get rid of one unit per tile. And if a game needs multiple dlcs and mods to make it great, then it is not great.

Well yes and no. CiV 5 was a real let down at release and got decent afterwards. But CiV 4 for example (which I regard best of the series) also only really got awesome with the 2 addons.
One recommendation: Battle Brothers. Great even without DLCs.

On the AI topic:
As stated before I do not think that developing a "new AI" is all that easy. Especially not on a tight budget.
What should be easy tho, is the implementation of smarter map triggers with some what-if-conditions.
Especially when there are "hidden" counter attacks waiting.

As of now, I better dont capture Prokhorovka and Kursk until last turn. Thats a bit lame.
I want to stress again, that Im still having fun!

funat wrote: ↑Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:57 am Its time to realize for the companies that AI DOES MATTER. Bad ai results often in no buy.

Sadly I'm afraid the opposite is true. Civ 6 is a great case in point. It has sold very well despite having a useless AI. The majority of game sales are to casual gamers who actually get frustrated by and don't want a skilled AI.
Programming a competent AI, let alone an skilled one, is very hard, expensive, and turns off more players than it attracts.

trengilly wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:50 pm Sadly I'm afraid the opposite is true. Civ 6 is a great case in point. It has sold very well despite having a useless AI. The majority of game sales are to casual gamers who actually get frustrated by and don't want a skilled AI.
Programming a competent AI, let alone an skilled one, is very hard, expensive, and turns off more players than it attracts.

That's an incorrect assumption. Since there haven't been a competent AI (in your opinion atleast) it couldn't possibly have turned off any buyers or potential buyers.

What you are saying is; Civ 6 sold well despite the game having a poor AI (again in your opinion). So the lure of Civ 6 would be something else than the state of the AI.

Duedman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:34 pm As of now, I better dont capture Prokhorovka and Kursk until last turn. Thats a bit lame.
I want to stress again, that Im still having fun!

Is that the trigger for the counterattacks? I thought it was taking the supply point. I triggered it early, around turn 12, which seemed to conicide with my tking the supply point to the east. My units were all out of position, however that ended up making it much more fun and challenging.

Snake97644 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:43 am
Is that the trigger for the counterattacks? I thought it was taking the supply point. I triggered it early, around turn 12, which seemed to conicide with my tking the supply point to the east. My units were all out of position, however that ended up making it much more fun and challenging.

Im not entirely sure what it is but it is not the supply point.
But thats what I mean. Why not take combined triggers.
„If kursk is captured, launch reserves -or- if certain number of german units in area x (attenpting surround) launch reserves -or- .....“

Theres no new AI needed for that but it woukd make the scenario work as intended. And there are many examples for that in the campaign