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Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:51 am
by OldFocker
I started this and have reached the 'Gates of Moscow' with Army Group Centre." I presume such scenarios are fixed, i.e. I am not able to disobey the order to turn south and attack Kiev instead of pressing home my advance on Moscow? (in reality a fatal error).
I note that during the phase of attacking Moscow itself there is increasingly an absolute mass of Russian armour to deal with, and having expended a lot of my resources to get this far I am hopelessly outnumbered in men and machine! Presumably this is to replicate historical odds? I have expediently maintained air superiority throughout the campain, at Moscow having four 109s and four JU87s, but my armour is not up to dealing with the Russian counter-attack that has begun even though I've used quite a lot of won prestige improving it. I am thinking of going back to an earlier save and aligning my artillery as a defensive move and letting the Russians attack instead of advancing further myself. However, I suspect Russia may just continue procuring more and more men and machines.
I've noted that the Russians can make very dumb moves on occasion, attacking 10 armour with 1 or 2 infanrty and thus suiciding themselves. Also when they are entrenched they are easily lured out by positioning an easy target within their move reach. As defenders they surely would be sensible and sit tight in their secure position with other enemy units nearby?
Lastly, I accept that my air superiority is a mixed blessing given the inclement weather. However, on occasional turns with no adverse weather I could use one aircraft to attack with, but attempting to use any others failed for some reason - must be a bug.
I have to say that the game has grown on me despite my initial (modest) disappointment. I do, however, see some AI flaws carried over from the original PC.
Re: Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:13 pm
by MickMannock
OldFocker wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 11:51 am
I started this and have reached the 'Gates of Moscow' with Army Group Centre." I presume such scenarios are
fixed, i.e. I am not able to disobey the order to turn south and attack Kiev instead of pressing home my advance on Moscow? (in reality a fatal error).
I note that during the phase of attacking Moscow itself there is increasingly an
absolute mass of Russian armour to deal with, and having expended a lot of my resources to get this far I am hopelessly outnumbered in men and machine! Presumably this is to replicate historical odds? I have expediently maintained air superiority throughout the campain, at Moscow having four 109s and four JU87s, but my armour is not up to dealing with the Russian counter-attack that has begun even though I've used quite a lot of won prestige improving it. I am thinking of going back to an earlier save and aligning my artillery as a defensive move and letting the Russians attack instead of advancing further myself. However, I suspect Russia may just continue procuring more and more men and machines.
I've noted that the Russians can make very dumb moves on occasion, attacking 10 armour with 1 or 2 infanrty and thus suiciding themselves. Also when they are entrenched they are easily lured out by positioning an easy target within their move reach. As defenders they surely would be sensible and sit tight in their secure position with other enemy units nearby?
Lastly, I accept that my air superiority is a mixed blessing given the inclement weather. However, on occasional turns with no adverse weather I could use one aircraft to attack with, but attempting to use any others failed for some reason - must be a bug.
I have to say that the game has grown on me despite my initial (modest) disappointment. I do, however, see some AI flaws carried over from the original PC.
Regarding the aircraft not performing so well, did you check the weather? Cause if it's cloudy, your airforce performs worse than in sunny weather.
As for the Moscow scenario, yes it's kinda tough. The key in PC2 is to make encirclements and forcing surrenders. That makes the killing of units much easier and it earns you extra prestige.
As for your airforce composition, I would have 3 109's, 2 110's, 1 Ju87, 1 Ju88 instead. The 110 is very cost effective and doubles well as both tactical bomber and fighter. The surplus core slots comes in handy to increase your presence on the ground, which also should make it a bit easier dealing with the enemy (ie creating pockets).
Re: Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:51 pm
by Hexaboo
I'd argue that Moscow is the hardest scenario if you're going for the ahistorical 'winning the war' branch of the campaign.
And if you're having a hard time cracking it, look for ways to bypass the frontal defences in the west without engaging them, and do everything to bait the Soviet armour into the city or into your own AT traps. This is also an excellent place to give recon planes a serious try, Ju 87 are pretty useless there because of the poor weather and a forest of AA guns in the city.
Re: Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:46 pm
by gokkel
Going so airforce heavy is quite risky, as there will be quite a few scenarios where your air force will be very weak due to weather or there not being as many targets for your tactical bombers. But of course you can always move some to the reserve if necessary
Tactical bombers can be great against enemy tanks and other targets, but you should start to include some AT units as well so you will also have something to protect you against the enemy tanks when your Airforce cannot act.
Kiev is fixed if you go with Army Group Center. Army Group North would go to Leningrad instead.
The AI is indeed often acting questionably, I really hope there will be some big improvements still.
Re: Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:04 pm
by shawkhan2
Position anti-tank and/or 15 cm artillery behind your front lines and the Russian armor will immolate itself attacking even infantry or recon cars. I personally find this game(not simulation) easier than PC1. Too many fantasy heroes and gamey tactics the human player can use and the AI does not. You can use artillery rain or shine, your Luftwaffe is too limited in the Russian winter.
Re: Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:24 pm
by OldFocker
shawkhan2 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:04 pm
Position anti-tank and/or 15 cm artillery behind your front lines and the Russian armor will immolate itself attacking even infantry or recon cars.
Funny you should say that! I've been accumulating heavy artillery and am holding a (slightly fluid) line. It means progress is very slow but I can at least hold my own against piecemeal attacks. Thing is, I am wondering if the Russian side is continuing to amass armour as per history? If so there's no chance - the build up is impressive.
Re: Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 4:23 pm
by Duedman
OldFocker wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:24 pm
shawkhan2 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:04 pm
Position anti-tank and/or 15 cm artillery behind your front lines and the Russian armor will immolate itself attacking even infantry or recon cars.
Funny you should say that! I've been accumulating heavy artillery and am holding a (slightly fluid) line. It means progress is very slow but I can at least hold my own against piecemeal attacks. Thing is, I am wondering if the Russian side is continuing to amass armour as per history? If so there's no chance - the build up is impressive.
Park infantry in close defense hexes (cities, forests, hills). No Tanks can touch them there. With utilizing Zone of Control you can at least get some defensive anchors.
What I also did, was buy first 8.8 Flak (convertible to AT) in Belgium, second in France. During the campaign they killed more tanks than aircraft (once they start hitting something with 2 stars+ )
You can also create ambushes - tho not as easily as before.
Wait for rain or snow, where spotting range is decreased. Put a weaker tank (i.e. any german panzer in 1941) next to an enemy so AI sees it.
Put the 8.8 in AT mode behind the bait. Click end turn and enjoy.
Re: Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 5:46 pm
by econ21
The trick to Moscow is go heavy on infantry. The key is the city itself - you want a lot of infantry backed always by artillery to work methodologically through the urban areas, strongpoint by strongpoint. Engineers are your cutting edge but regulars are absolutely fine to bulk out your numbers if backed by artillery.
Don't worry about the Soviet heavy armour. Most of it will foolishly charge into the city, where it is helpless against your infantry. It dies almost effortlessly.
The German tanks are almost irrelevant in this scenario - helping clear the flanks if the Soviet infantry are foolish enough to leave their entrenchments.
Where you do need tanks etc. is on the final bonus objectives beyond the city. It's largely open terrain. But the Soviet armour will have been thinned out and is not much good for contesting the victory hexes themselves, as they are not open terrain. You have to really move it though - I just by the narrowest fraction failed to take the last victory hex.
Basically, I divided my forces roughly 2/3 city, 1/3 skirting south round the city, bypassing it to move on the final objectives. My mistake was to clear out all the southeast - that wasn't necessary and the couple of turns it took me cost me the war.
Re: Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:05 pm
by shawkhan2
Try watching Edmon's Moscow video just released today. I believe he has broken the game by utilizing a completely unbeatable killer combo of heroes. He has one flammenwerfer tank that destroys three units per turn ,limited only by ammo. He has driven straight into Moscow with no trouble at all. I have previously said that heroes are fantasy figures in this game and this I think proves it.
Re: Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:25 pm
by SineMora
My take on the Battle of Moscow from my AAR. Either way, reduce your air force, make sure you have enough elite infantry to form a spearhead and provide artillery to support them, and then fight your way into Moscow. Going through the west isn't recommended as it's not only slower but also completely pointless, unless you're stacking heroes to trivialise the game. If the Soviet counterttack proves problematic you can just sit back in the city itself and wait for Soviet armour to cripple itself trying to get to you.
Re: Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:44 am
by econ21
The massive siege gun Karl something or other) you can first buy in the Barbarossa Central scenario is great in the Moscow map. It really shines against heavy tanks and against heavily entrenched infantry - which to be honest, are the two major challenges in PzC2, at least in the East. I am starting to suspect the siege gun is great on most maps. The map distances are low enough, and the time limits generous enough, that even moving at speed 3, it often seems able to fire every turn. Ironically, an exception to this is the Barbarossa Central scenario, where I used it to destroy the Brest-Litovsk fortress, but it never caught up with my army.
Re: Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 4:51 pm
by ScrubinMcNubins
I found similar to the above posts the trick for me on General difficulty (default medium) was to use the Karl Great to break particularly difficult units, like the entrenched infantry or bunkers. I also went heavy on infantry. I usually have a few fallschrimjaegers in reserve, so even I committed them as regular infantry in this battle. Their extra close defense helps a bit. I had about 9 infantry for the battle. For the Soviet armored counterattack, I positioned my infantry as a wall on the east edge of the city, in city hexes supported by 15cm artillery. When your infantry is in the city hexes, it's pretty much invulnerable to tanks. I then used Stukas, Karl Gerat, 88s, and suppression to destroy or encircle enemy tanks.
Re: Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 6:19 pm
by gunnergoz
One thing I really like about PC2 is how different scenarios highlight different units and combinations. There are times when tanks and Stukas shine, and times when infantry and AT guns shine. Artillery is always important and sometimes your recon units are invaluable for surrounding units and forcing their surrender. A good paper/scissors/rock game.
Re: Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 9:09 pm
by shawkhan2
Moscow is the first battle I have had to do over in this game. The first time I won but spent over 7k on replacements. The second time I was more cautious but left the last city Kalinin with one! strength point of Russians in it at the end. Finished with lots of prestige though, but a loss. The third time I got the balance right by buying four fresh Falschirmjaegers and using them to help bludgeon my way into the city from the South. The weather can make or break any attack on this city. I had clouds or snow for much of the battle, with very few turns of clear sky. Do not leave home w/o lots of artillery as you cannot count on the Luftwaffe in this one.
Re: Barbarossa Campaign
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:06 am
by SSLConf_pewp3w
OldFocker wrote: ↑Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:24 pm
Thing is, I am wondering if the Russian side is continuing to amass armour as per history? If so there's no chance - the build up is impressive.
The AI does not get units during the scenario.