Slitherine

Can you guys just confirm to me that there's no way to know what a units combat power is simply by looking at it on the field?
For example from left to right these 3 fresh units are a Grenadier43, a Wehr Infantry, and a Volksturm, notice their strength plates are all the same '15'.




So correct me if I'm wrong, but must we select a unit then click its 'i' (info tab) to see its actual combat strength?
Doing that with those units reveals that the Grenadiers combat strengths are- Soft attack 13, Hard attack 13, Ground defence 11.
and the Wehr Inf is 11- 7- 8
and the Volksturm is 6-11-6

In other words the Gren is the most powerful, then the Wehr inf, then the weak Volksturm.
It's easy enough to memorise those three, but there might well be a dozen more friendly units in play, plus loads more enemy units and it's impossible to memorise them all, so I'm just wondering how you guys know which your best and worst units are in order to deploy them accordingly, and which the enemy's best and worst are too, do you click 'i' for every unit?

Just use the stats panel; hover the mouse over a unit and you'll get a quick breakdown of its stats. You should try to memorise the most common ones, though, as it makes the game a lot easier to play. It's the right-most toggle at the top, with "4" being the default hotkey.



By selecting one unit you can also quickly compare stats between different units this way.

To prevent this problem, there should be an option to show PC1 counters and PC1 2D map instead of 3D.

ErissN6 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:57 pm To prevent this problem, there should be an option to show PC1 counters and PC1 2D map instead of 3D.

How would counters change anything? The stats would still be displayed in the same place.

SineMora wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:47 pmHow would counters change anything? The stats would still be displayed in the same place.

Yes, but with counters we see better what is exactly the unit and what is its purpose.

ErissN6 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:10 pm

SineMora wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:47 pmHow would counters change anything? The stats would still be displayed in the same place.

Yes, but with counters we see better what is exactly the unit and what is its purpose.

The OP is looking for an easier way to tell whether a specific unit is stronger than another, and counters won't help with that; they might make it easier to determine if a unit is a tank or a SPAT, but that is a separate argument.

Answer is undoubtably the side stats panel. Thanks SineMora.

Kerensky wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 11:40 pm Answer is undoubtably the side stats panel. Thanks SineMora.

So basically, if I have this right, the product of effective combat strength times attack should roughly represent a unit's combat effectiveness against a given target? And their initiative times their attack (if their initiative is higher than the enemy's) should roughly represent the damage they'll do before being "struck back" by return fire?

Nalikill wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:39 am So basically, if I have this right, the product of effective combat strength times attack should roughly represent a unit's combat effectiveness against a given target? And their initiative times their attack (if their initiative is higher than the enemy's) should roughly represent the damage they'll do before being "struck back" by return fire?

Combat strength gives number of shots.
Accuracy gives Hits/Misses.
A-D gives Kills/Suppression/Deflect per hit.

1 point in Init 'win' gives 20% of shoots fired before return fire.
So 5 point Init 'win' fires all shots before retaliation.
There is still a random effect with Init.

Look in combat Logs.

SineMora wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:14 pmThe OP is looking for an easier way to tell whether a specific unit is stronger than another, and counters won't help with that

It will help, because counters are made for that, not 3D which are done to be good looking instead of good informative.
Sure if we want the details we go seeing them, but with 3D we have even not the gross picture, we must see the details to be able to guess what about is the unit.
And why devs add something 2D on their 3D? if 3D suffices... The 2D they add is not enpough, they should add instead a true counter...

dalfrede wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:55 am

Nalikill wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:39 am So basically, if I have this right, the product of effective combat strength times attack should roughly represent a unit's combat effectiveness against a given target? And their initiative times their attack (if their initiative is higher than the enemy's) should roughly represent the damage they'll do before being "struck back" by return fire?

Combat strength gives number of shots.
Accuracy gives Hits/Misses.
A-D gives Kills/Suppression/Deflect per hit.

1 point in Init 'win' gives 20% of shoots fired before return fire.
So 5 point Init 'win' fires all shots before retaliation.
There is still a random effect with Init.

Look in combat Logs.

What combat logs? Honest, I did not know of anything like that.

LATE EDIT: I just learned to press "L" after launching the game, loading a turn, and discovered to my delight the wealth of detail it reveals about how combat is resolved. Learn something new every day!

ErissN6 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:58 am

SineMora wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:14 pmThe OP is looking for an easier way to tell whether a specific unit is stronger than another, and counters won't help with that

It will help, because counters are made for that, not 3D which are done to be good looking instead of good informative.
Sure if we want the details we go seeing them, but with 3D we have even not the gross picture, we must see the details to be able to guess what about is the unit.
And why devs add something 2D on their 3D? if 3D suffices... The 2D they add is not enpough, they should add instead a true counter...

The example given in the OP is of 3 infantry units. How would having counters all showing that its infantry help in any way shape or form?

In fact with the models you can if you look really closely tell which is which by sight (admittedly that's really tough) but if you just had generic infantry counters that would not be possible.

Counters would be zero help with what the OP was asking. The answer as a previous poster mentioned is to use the info panel.

Horseman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:12 am
The example given in the OP is of 3 infantry units. How would having counters all showing that its infantry help in any way shape or form?

In fact with the models you can if you look really closely tell which is which by sight (admittedly that's really tough) but if you just had generic infantry counters that would not be possible.

Counters would be zero help with what the OP was asking. The answer as a previous poster mentioned is to use the info panel.

Well, to be fair, there are specific counters for different kind of infantry, so that wouldn't really be a problem. I'd even go so far to say that it actually would be easier to tell the different infantry counters apart than the current infantry models in the game.

That being said, I agree that a counter in itself wouldn't help what the OP is asking for, as he wanted the specific attack numbers to be shown. On the other hand, a lot of war games have plenty of numbers attached on the top and bottom of the counters, so it wouldn't be impossible to pull off either.

Plz add a side panel when selecting an unit with just : " view range / soft attack/ hard attack/ range dmg "

no need the others infos.

Horseman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:12 amThe example given in the OP is of 3 infantry units. How would having counters all showing that its infantry help in any way shape or form?
with the models you can if you look really closely tell which is which by sight (admittedly that's really tough).
Counters would be zero help with what the OP was asking.

Weirdly, nobody complained about the counters of PC1... 3D is here to fix what was not broken.

ErissN6 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:23 am

Horseman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:12 amThe example given in the OP is of 3 infantry units. How would having counters all showing that its infantry help in any way shape or form?
with the models you can if you look really closely tell which is which by sight (admittedly that's really tough).
Counters would be zero help with what the OP was asking.

Weirdly, nobody complained about the counters of PC1... 3D is here to fix what was not broken.

Wait, sorry you mean the counters from PG1 and not NATO style counters? That's my bad, I saw counters and assumed.

The PC1 units were definately easier to differentiate compared to the 3d models. But then again it still doesn't help with the OP question. The answer is still the info panel!

Horseman wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:43 amThe PC1 units were definately easier to differentiate compared to the 3d models. But then again it still doesn't help with the OP question. The answer is still the info panel!

Yes, but once you have seen and known, it does help:
with counters, when you remember the strenghts of units, you know the counter strenght at first glance, you don't have to zoom on a 3D figure or click again on the left pannel.

ErissN6 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:23 amWeirdly, nobody complained about the counters of PC1... 3D is here to fix what was not broken.

Or maybe, they are just stuff that people thought would be interesting. Not everything needs to be about "fixing" things. This is a new game, if you don't like what it has to offer you can always go and play Panzer Corps, no one is taking that game away from you. What you are doing basically amounts to telling an artists that he shouldn't have madea new project he was interested in, but instead should have ignored his own plans and wishes to give you something you already had.


There is no advantage in what you claim either. Be it the 2d figures of PC1 or the 3d models now, in both cases you need to look at a unit to see what they actually are. And no, the differences weren't clear as a day in PC1 and hard to read now. Both concepts allow to recognize a unit once you have understood the system and become familiar with how every unit looks like. That is true here and was true for Panzer Corps as well. Without being familiar with the game, most people couldn't tell you what type of infantry they were looking at in PC. All that only comes through playing the game. Which is why it is rather ridiculous to compare the familiarity of a game that has been out for a few weeks compared to a game that has been out for years.

In either case, if you wanted to know the exact stats of a unit - which was the entire point of the opening post - you needed to look it up. There was no way of knowing those just by looking at a unit. That hasn't changed one bit. The only other way would be to learn all stats by heart, but again, that is completely disconnected from the appearance of the units. If you can learn a table of stats for one game, you can learn a table of stats for another game. You wouldn't know the stats any better just because a unit was shown in 2d, as there is no link between the stats and the appearance. Once you have played a game for quite some time, you'll probably know the rough strengths of each unit, but that is true regardless of whether you are playing PC or PC2.

Thanks guys and another thing I want to mention is the 'Experience' rating.
Note in the first screenshot below that the Pz38's experience level is '0' (circled) before its been in combat-





But after I attack that Sherman with it (stripping off some of its strength and forcing a retreat), it's new exp level is now '45' which presumably means its going to fight better from now on.
So can I ask if the only way to see a units exp level is to click to open its stats screen?
(incidentally what's the maximum exp level a unit can rise to, 100 per cent? Is the '45' therefore 45% ?)

PoorOldSpike wrote: ↑Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:55 pm Thanks guys and another thing I want to mention is the 'Experience' rating.
Note in the first screenshot below that the Pz38's experience level is '0' (circled) before its been in combat-





But after I attack that Sherman with it (stripping off some of its strength and forcing a retreat), it's new exp level is now '45' which presumably means its going to fight better from now on.
So can I ask if the only way to see a units exp level is to click to open its stats screen?
(incidentally what's the maximum exp level a unit can rise to, 100 per cent? Is the '45' therefore 45% ?)

It won't fight any better. It's 1000 xp per "level" so at present it's still level 0.

You can see a units xp when you select it. In the bottom left of the screen you'll see the selected unit with stars above it. Each full star is 1 level (so 1000 xp)

Each level gives a bonus to accuracy and a small malus to opponents accuracy.

Edit: each level is harder to get as a unit earns less xp per kill (and per loss I think) so at level 0 it's 100% then it gets progressively less I'm not sure on the exact numbers here but in PC1 it used to be level 0= 100% level 1= 50% level 2 = 25% level 3= 12% and level 4 = 6%