Slitherine

PC2 has the 17cm K18 with a range of 4, it should be more.

impar wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:55 am The way PzC models the 7,5cm and 10,5cm, giving 2 and 3 range respectively, can be understood due to gameplay reasons (and if the 10,5cm has 3 range the bigger weapons should have at least 3 range too, also for gameplay reasons, the exception being the 17cm, it was an absolute long range gun).
From Encyclopedia of Weapons of WWII, by Chris Bishop:
7,5cm - 9.425m (if its designation in PzC is corrected to leFK 18, the FK16nA had 12.875m, a 3 range gamewise)
10,5cm - 12.325m
15cm - 13.325m
17cm - 29.600m
21cm - 16.700m

The game simplifies artillery into 3 main groups: light, medium and heavy, with a range of 2, 3 and 4 respectively. Light is the cheapest and mainly geared towards infantry support, medium offers longer range and flexibility (the 15 cm can fire in support against both soft and hard targets) and heavy is the most expensive, with the longest range and the counter-battery trait, allowing them to supress enemy artillery. 5 is limited to super-heavy artillery such as the K5, the Gustav or capital ship batteries.

So no, the 17 cm should not have a range of 5.

impar wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:15 am PC2 has the 17cm K18 with a range of 4, it should be more.

impar wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:55 am The way PzC models the 7,5cm and 10,5cm, giving 2 and 3 range respectively, can be understood due to gameplay reasons (and if the 10,5cm has 3 range the bigger weapons should have at least 3 range too, also for gameplay reasons, the exception being the 17cm, it was an absolute long range gun).
From Encyclopedia of Weapons of WWII, by Chris Bishop:
7,5cm - 9.425m (if its designation in PzC is corrected to leFK 18, the FK16nA had 12.875m, a 3 range gamewise)
10,5cm - 12.325m
15cm - 13.325m
17cm - 29.600m
21cm - 16.700m

I would rather say that the 15cm is depicted as having far too good a range. Same with 10.5 cm really. But from a game-design point of view, the dev has made artillery ranges standard for all nations.

I made a suggestion in the beta that the 21cm be dropped to 3. And the 10.5cm give AT support. But no.

The 17cm K18 is a different breed from the others.
Even with a 5 range it would only fire once per turn.
Also, (I cant consult the stats now, so from memory...) the 21cm is available in Poland, has better attack values, same range stats as the 17cm so whats the point of having the 17cm in the game?

impar wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:58 am The 17cm K18 is a different breed from the others.
Even with a 5 range it would only fire once per turn.
Also, (I cant consult the stats now, so from memory...) the 21cm is available in Poland, has better attack values, same range stats as the 17cm so whats the point of having the 17cm in the game?

21cm is more expensive in prestige and core slots. If either one of those is tight then you might opt for 17cm.

Think about 10.5 V 15. Same situation, why would you opt for 10.5 other than prestige/slot cost?

impar wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:58 am The 17cm K18 is a different breed from the others.
Even with a 5 range it would only fire once per turn.
Also, (I cant consult the stats now, so from memory...) the 21cm is available in Poland, has better attack values, same range stats as the 17cm so whats the point of having the 17cm in the game?

1 slot less.

Horseman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:16 am

impar wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:58 am The 17cm K18 is a different breed from the others.
Even with a 5 range it would only fire once per turn.
Also, (I cant consult the stats now, so from memory...) the 21cm is available in Poland, has better attack values, same range stats as the 17cm so whats the point of having the 17cm in the game?

21cm is more expensive in prestige and core slots. If either one of those is tight then you might opt for 17cm.

Think about 10.5 V 15. Same situation, why would you opt for 10.5 other than prestige/slot cost?

It's not the same.

10.5 lack AT trait.

17/21 have exactly the same traits, except slots and slightly different attacks.

nexusno2000 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:28 am

Horseman wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:16 am

impar wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:58 am The 17cm K18 is a different breed from the others.
Even with a 5 range it would only fire once per turn.
Also, (I cant consult the stats now, so from memory...) the 21cm is available in Poland, has better attack values, same range stats as the 17cm so whats the point of having the 17cm in the game?

21cm is more expensive in prestige and core slots. If either one of those is tight then you might opt for 17cm.

Think about 10.5 V 15. Same situation, why would you opt for 10.5 other than prestige/slot cost?

It's not the same.

10.5 lack AT trait.

17/21 have exactly the same traits, except slots and slightly different attacks.

Yes which in this case makes the 15cm far far superior to the 10.5cm. You gain stats and AT ability for only 1 slot extra and prestige cost. Yet people still take 10.5cm.

To be fair, the 15cm being able to provide also AT support becomes much less relevant as the war progresses, at least in my experience. I most of the time only need soft protection for my infantry to protect them from enemy infantry, for that the other artillery becomes worth considering. In addition I might add a 17cm or 21cm piece to protect against enemy artillery and have another long range option on attack.

If I really need to put my infantry in open terrain without zone of control protection later on, I will cover with a proper AT unit.

gokkel wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 2:42 pm To be fair, the 15cm being able to provide also AT support becomes much less relevant as the war progresses, at least in my experience. I most of the time only need soft protection for my infantry to protect them from enemy infantry, for that the other artillery becomes worth considering. In addition I might add a 17cm or 21cm piece to protect against enemy artillery and have another long range option on attack.

If I really need to put my infantry in open terrain without zone of control protection later on, I will cover with a proper AT unit.

Words of wisdom. Late war, 15 cm hard attack is too low to cause much suppression in attacker. You need at guns.

The 105mm Stug can switch hit between infantry attack and AT attack. TBH I have not checked to see if its support values change with the alteration but it sure would be sweet if it did.

gunnergoz wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:16 pm The 105mm Stug can switch hit between infantry attack and AT attack. TBH I have not checked to see if its support values change with the alteration but it sure would be sweet if it did.

StuH 42 Art [16 14], AT [6 19]
StuG IV Art [12 14], AT [4 23]
[SA HA]

I don't think I'd be comfortable with 17cm K18 having more than 4 range. After seeing what that monster can do on a hill/mountain in Gothic Line, where it does have 5 range counter battery fire... 4 range is enough.

The way I see it, those hard support values on the big guns aren't meant for anti-tank duty. They're meant for ant-vehicle duty. There are a lot more vehicles roaming around in mid and late war, especially SPAT and SPARTY. Hummel is a hard target. Big arty needs some modicum of Hard Attack value so it can inflict some degree of punishment on lightweight hard targets.

Of course it's not designed to pummel something like an Su-100 or an IS-2. You absolutely need dedicated 88mm power for that kind of threat.

dalfrede wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:33 pm

gunnergoz wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:16 pm The 105mm Stug can switch hit between infantry attack and AT attack. TBH I have not checked to see if its support values change with the alteration but it sure would be sweet if it did.

StuH 42 Art [16 14], AT [6 19]
StuG IV Art [12 14], AT [4 23]
[SA HA]

Right, I know, perhaps I was not clear, but what I was asking about was whether changing the focus also changes the support type. These are typically units that support friendlies being attacked by soft targets. If they switch their focus from infantry attack to antitank attack, does the corresponding support type switch to supporting friendlies being attacked by hard targets, i.e. tanks?

UPDATE: I finally re-started the game and confirmed that the Arty Stugg "StuH 42" does indeed change its support type when you change the attack focus. That makes it my primo support type of unit from now on since it can switch hit depending upon how you need it to behave at the time.