Slitherine

Hi there,

Problem we had last night and couldn't find a proper answer in the rules

Unit of Clipeati (in Red), is charged in the flank by the Janissaries in the JAP as a pursuit, we fight combat in the impact of the next turn - the Clipeati rout. The Serbs don't get to fight as it isn't the melee phase yet.

We worked out that they rout splitting the angle between their two opponents, the question is how do they get there?

Do we reform the unit - moving the two sideways facing bases back to their proper position, turn it 180, then wheel it to head in the right direction - in which case the wheel is so slow that they don't contact the Hungarian Knights on their flank.

Or do we reform the unit turned onto its new heading and then rout it, in which case it would hit the Hungarians and burst through them since it would be more than an element shift to avoid.

We decided on the turn and wheel option, but it seemed a bit strange for units routing to be wheeling (by the right - run away) Presumably there would in practice be no need to maintain formation in a fleeing unit and the alternative one would have thought would be for them all just to run backwards and reform as best as possible after the initial rout.

John

the rules say it routs directly away from the enemy that broke it if only one unit so I have always turned 180 degrees and moved the routers away. I always assumed it was a similar thing for being broken by 2 units, I measure from the rear of the unit as it sits and move them on the split angle so they end with their backs facing towards the units that broke them. All the rules state is they have to move directly away from the enemy that broke them so I assume the intial turn away is a free easy move.

Don't forget you roll a VMD for initial break so they might pick up extra moves or go slower to start.

You can shift up to one base to pass friends or enemies or terrain/camps and if you succeed can drop back stands as per the evade section which gives you a longer easier to catch unit but might have saved your Hungarians from being burst through. sounds like you did it right and yes the whole wheeling while fleeing sounds a little odd but once your pointed at your table edge its pretty much straight runs till you rally or exit.

It's a messy one , and it looks like you played it correctly, bisecting the angle as best you could figure.
But I'm keen to know if the Clipeati wheel in that direction , the wheel being part of the rout distance too.
Or they sort of reform facing that way and rout the VMD.

THis is my pet peeve. THe rules appear not to be specific here. There are a few other threads on this.

Essentially I think you did it right.

One issue is the turned bases. Reforming into legal is one option. The other is to take the turned base and have them trail behind and thus more likely to be hit.

If you use the wheel away (which is what I have started using) the odds of bursting through the knights is less because the one base slide over combines witht the wheel to ge to the 45 degree angle is tough.

So the wheel process virtually guarantees getting caught but avoids the burst through more likley.

I would like this in the FAQ.

The way I read it is that you would

1) Turn 180deg .
2) Wheel until the unit is facing in the direction of flight path (bisectin angle as best you can)
3) Move in that direction the VMD , subtracting what you have already wheeled.


I think that right ?
The turned bases would obviously reform back into a valid unit formation.

My understanding is that each base is turned to face towards the rear, meaning those turned sideways only turn 90 degrees and one of them sticks out ahead of the others. Note that this is not a legal formation and does not need to be - routing is a compulsory move that may force bases out of a legal formation (p23).

Then the BG wheels somewhat less than 45 degrees to the right (since the difference in angle of facing of the two Turk BGs is less than 90 degrees) and moves in that direction.

Even a maximum VMD roll won't get the Clipeati to the Knights. It looks like they could drop the right file back to pass the Knights if they continued to rout in that direction. The direction of rout may change since the routers must move directly away from enemy in contact and if none are in contact then toward the base edge.

Fun fact: While routing, the principle of base removal with routers is to remove those furthest from pursuers in order to prevent routers from losing contact, so that base on the left sticking out ahead is likely to be the first to go.

Mike

not sure it makes any difference but is the clipeati a 7 figure or 6 figure unit.

FWIW I think they rout the bisected angles between the 2 units in contact. This in my opinion can try and avoid the Knights by wheeling and shifting past them or dropping bases back as per evades.

gibby wrote:not sure it makes any difference but is the clipeati a 7 figure or 6 figure unit.

To be 7 as they are they must have started as an 8.

FWIW I think they rout the bisected angles between the 2 units in contact. This in my opinion can try and avoid the Knights by wheeling and shifting past them or dropping bases back as per evades.

The angles dictate how they wheel, but they can certainly shift or drop back bases to avoid the friendly knights.

Thanks folks,

Do we have a definitive opinion in one of the other threads or from one of the rules writers? Any links to other threads? I did do a search and couldn't see anything.

We did do a bit of thinking about this. The key question is whether they need to wheel. We would tend to agree that it should be in the FAQ, since unlike in the simple frontal contact case, the business of getting into the right direction is not just a matter of turning bases 180.

John

PS

And yes, the clipeati started as an 8 base, but got one base shot off by massed Azab bow and gunfire, despite being armoured

jcmedhurst wrote:Do we have a definitive opinion in one of the other threads or from one of the rules writers?

I don't think we have actually. Which makes it a pet peeve.

jcmedhurst wrote:Thanks folks,

Any links to other threads?

viewtopic.php?t=9227

I suppose looking at the evade rules and using it as a basis for routing might be the answer here, turn 180 degrees wheel into the direction of rout and move froward whatever move you have left .... and then kiss at least 1 base goodbye since you probably wont gain much ground by wheeling so the serbs will likely stay in contact for initial pursuit at least. Saves your knights from being burst through and possible grants them a new tasty target. I doubt the Janniseries would be able to wheel in pursuit and keep up with your routers.
Hope that helps somewhat, kind of vague rules there.

deadtorius wrote: turn 180 degrees

In a 180 turn the old front rank becomes the new front, rank, basically switching around, and the odd 7th base would in a turn fall into the third rank, for which there is no room since the pursuing enemy are in the way - unless you displaced the turn backward enough to make room, but then only one routing base would be left in contact.

Thus I wrote turn each base to face to the rear, leaving the front rank in the back of the rout where they belong.

I doubt the Janniseries would be able to wheel in pursuit and keep up with your routers.

Moving 1 MU faster and with the Clipeati turning, I think the Janissaries could make contact if there were no Serbs getting in the way - which one moves first depends on who is fastest after VMDice.

Mike

The Clipeati rolled normal for their VMD, so the real question was whether they were going to use all their move wheeling to the right direction.

Still doesn't seem right to me (the Janissaries were mine though so I would say that), I can't see one end of a unit waitiing for the other to wheel into position before turning and running, but there you go.

Thanks for the topic link, seems to be well covered there, though the 7th base complicates matters a bit.

I would always use a wheel in this situation. It does mean that the routers don't actually move that far in their first rout move but they will get a second one in the JAP regardless.

I think of it as the formation crumbling and the routers and pursuers getting in a real tangle. Imagine the poor chaps routing from the corner of the broken BG, where are they going to go in reality? I think they would just end up in a confused mess with pursuers and routers intermingled.

hammy wrote:I would always use a wheel in this situation. It does mean that the routers don't actually move that far in their first rout move but they will get a second one in the JAP regardless.

I think of it as the formation crumbling and the routers and pursuers getting in a real tangle. Imagine the poor chaps routing from the corner of the broken BG, where are they going to go in reality? I think they would just end up in a confused mess with pursuers and routers intermingled.

Agreed I would like a little more author clarity especially when you have a BG fighting in two directions that routs. Where does the turned base go?

hazelbark wrote:. Where does the turned base go?

I think the only place it can possibly go is in front and ahead of the leftmost file once the Clipeati turn about, since that's the side it is on.

Mike

hammy wrote:I would always use a wheel in this situation. It does mean that the routers don't actually move that far in their first rout move but they will get a second one in the JAP regardless.

I think of it as the formation crumbling and the routers and pursuers getting in a real tangle. Imagine the poor chaps routing from the corner of the broken BG, where are they going to go in reality? I think they would just end up in a confused mess with pursuers and routers intermingled.

Thanks Hammy,

So we did get it right after all, which shows you can follow the rules through to the right result, though an FAQ might be an idea. The 'rolled up from the right' argument seems a reasonable one to me. I can't remember now whose impact phase it was, so not sure if the knights would have had the time to get out of the way before being burst through in the JAP.

MikeK wrote:

hazelbark wrote:. Where does the turned base go?

I think the only place it can possibly go is in front and ahead of the leftmost file once the Clipeati turn about, since that's the side it is on.

I could as easily see the argument that is goes to the rear.

Or that is in frontal contact and therefore tries to resume a wide position like it is in front. Then it would probably have to do the base shift.

Again i am just looking for a standard practice. Don't really care which is chose, but it would be helpful if it was more consistent.

hazelbark wrote:I could as easily see the argument that is goes to the rear.

If you work it through I think that would be terrible game design. Doing so and creating a protuberance in the rear rather than the front as they rout dramatically changes the position of the base in the BG (and the base moves directly toward the enemy before moving directly away) and makes the pursuit distance to catch the BG shorter at that end of the line than the other. If the base were in the back of another file, the protuberance would be somewhere else along the rear of the routers. This aids pursuers getting into contact, which is sometimes desirable for the routers and sometimes not for the pursuers.

Plus having it fall behind raises the question of whether the second rank should also be falling behind the rank in frontal combat, front.

If the whole group is adjusted a base depth towards the direction of rout so the rear edge of the BG with its protuberant base does not fall behind farther than it should, then elsewhere on the line the pursuers (Serbs) have an additional distance to cross to make contact due to their opponents having an irregular third rank, which makes less than zero sense.

Or that is in frontal contact and therefore tries to resume a wide position like it is in front. Then it would probably have to do the base shift.

This rule that makes bases sticky like taffy on contact violates the directly away principle and would require an extra few sentences for a special rule that so far as I can see serves no purpose other than complexity and adding something else to think about in initial BG setup and planning regarding flank charges.

I don't think there's any other choice than fill in lost bases in the front edge combat normally, turn each base 180, and move the rout.