Slitherine

With most units (esp. tanks and fighters), I find it best usually to pick the latest model to field. But with artillery, the different range and calibre of guns is not so much a matter of improvements in technology but differences in function, so picking the right ones to field is not so clear. What works for people? I haven't got very far into the campaign - about to go to Russia - but wonder if my budget arsenal of 105s and 75 will be fit for purpose. I notice the default starting army for Barbarossa Central is four: a 105, 150, Sturmpanzer and a StuG.

What is artillery good for:
(a) suppression, especially long range (e.g. the units supporting the front line, especially AD).
(b) reducing entrenchment
(c) defensive fire

For suppression, my 75 and 105 artillery feel a little underwhelming. I haven't tried heavier stuff - the Nerbelwerfer were rather good in PzC1. And on many older game maps, having range 4 where it was possible (e.g. via a hero) could be a massive advantage - e.g. neutralising 3 range AD guns behind a city. Counter-battery fire in PzC2 makes using artillery to suppressing enemy artillery less attractive than in PzC but might give an extra edge to armoured (hard target) artillery.

For reducing entrenchment, gun calibre doesn't seem to matter much (although StuGs reduce more). Generally, entrenchment reduction seems less important in PzC2 than PzC1 as entrenchments never get below their base level, which can be quite high - e.g. 4. And so far, I am finding I am more deliberate in my assaults than I was in PzC1. Infantry losses are so high, even when everything is done right, it takes time to set up the assault. (The difference from PzC1 may be the base entrenchment, but also complete suppression is harder to achieve and a target can't be attacked twice in a turn from the air).

I haven't found defensive fire so important yet, but I gather it is valuable in Moscow. (In PzC GC later war battles, you had to always back up infantry with defensive fire). The 150mm sounds attractive for defensive fire, as it can fire against tanks.

So far what I've tried:
1. Sturmpanzer - hated this. Got it in Poland and put it in reserves forever. The AI airforce just bombed it repeatedly, killing half the stack which cost a lot to replace. Towed AT seems much more robust to air assault - they seemed mainly to suffer suppression so long as they were dismounted.
2. 75mm field gun - love this. 2 core slots! Also can move two and still shoot. Move and deploy to be ready to defend is nice too. More deliberate pace of city assaults means that I didn't find the short range a problem.
3. 105mm howitzer - 3 range makes it easier to use in congested assaults of choke points. Plus it is better able to hit supporting units behind the frontline. Typically I'd use both a 75 and a 105 against a town. Never seems to suppress that much though - a few strength points.
4. StuGIIIb - I like this. 2 core slots! Seems survivable, unlike Sturmpanzer. Mobility is very good - especially off road. Not sure the bunker buster thing helps much: forts etc. seem so strong - only isolating them and engineers do much damage. But 4x entrenchment reduction means this is good for quickly taking down garrisons in small towns at the end of a scenario map, that are heavily entrenched but have no support. Seems potentially very good for defensive fire.

At the moment (Barbarossa), core slots feel very limited so I am making hard choices. I'm wondering whether to upgrade the 75mm to 150mm, to be "historical" (Panzer artillery regiments seemed to have 105 and 150mm guns in a 2:1 ratio). But that would cost me four core slots (2x2 => 2x4), doubling the cost of those artillery units. A related question is how many core slots to devote to artillery. In PzC, I think artillery (and airforce) was the queen of the battle - in PzC2, it feels more supporting than dominating.

Other things I want to try at some point are a nerbelwerfer to see if it helps suppress more and a 4 range gun if I need that extra range to solve very tough defensive puzzles.

I'm also wondering about half tracks - in older games, half tracks were required to get to Moscow etc. fast enough in the snow and mud.

I'd be interested in how others are finding their artillery performing.

Always lots of 15cm artillery, except when no armor around, then 10.5cm

Add 1-2 21/17cm.

I have played with the Wurfrahmen, a nebelwerfer half track, and boy does that puppy suppress. But it takes 5 slots. To go with it I have 2x105, 1x150, and 2xStugB. I have a lot of arty, but I am playing without an air force.

Agreed, the 150 mm is an excellent all-round gun, because it provides defensive fire both against tanks and non-tanks.

Haven't seen all the self-propelled guns in the game, but so far they have been really disappointing, what with the ability of towed guns to dismount on the same turn within a certain radius, the Fast Deployment hero perk, and the lower overall cost.

Hemi wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 4:39 am I have played with the Wurfrahmen, a nebelwerfer half track, and boy does that puppy suppress. But it takes 5 slots. To go with it I have 2x105, 1x150, and 2xStugB. I have a lot of arty, but I am playing without an air force.

If you want somethign really dumb, slap lethal attack on the Wurfrahmen. its kinda amusing halving stacks just like.
Personally ive taken to running at least one 170mm for the counterbattery fire. Comes in even more handy outranging enemy artillery, pins them down for your shorter ranged artillery to fire freely.

Hexaboo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:19 pm Agreed, the 150 mm is an excellent all-round gun, because it provides defensive fire both against tanks and non-tanks.

Haven't seen all the self-propelled guns in the game, but so far they have been really disappointing, what with the ability of towed guns to dismount on the same turn within a certain radius, the Fast Deployment hero perk, and the lower overall cost.

Hummel is good SP at when u get it. Bc basically its a 15cm on where's

I luv my OS too much. I always stick to the smallest calibre of artillery with the longest range. 105mm, Wespe, and 170mm if I need range 4 counterbattery.

And I keep my artillery generally with no OS, because they are slot heavy. And they reduce the same amount of entrenchment regardless of OS, which is the primary job I need them to do (suppression too of course)

I started the campaign with 2 Mars Guns: the big 6-slot, counter-battery badboys.

Having counter-battery fire and an emergency AT unit was very valuable early game when I didn't want a dedicated AT slot. The range - particularly when on high ground - came in very handy early on when you're covering so much ground so quickly, you can usually hit 2 different positions with it without moving the gun.

As soon as they became available I added 2 Rocket Wagons. I hadn't realized initially that the Mars Guns didn't provide artillery support, but by that point I was too used to the power of their range to change. The mobility of the rocket wagons combined with the massive suppression against infantry makes them invaluable for shoving into city hexes quickly with a pioneer.

Nalikill wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:13 amAs soon as they became available I added 2 Rocket Wagons.

How are you finding their vulnerability against air units? I loved them in PzC but boy did they get hammered by the enemy airforce. Towed artillery seems much more resilient to air attack than mobile artillery. And given you can often move and dismount, the mobile stuff seems less valuable in PzC2 than PzC.

econ21 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:57 am

Nalikill wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:13 amAs soon as they became available I added 2 Rocket Wagons.

How are you finding their vulnerability against air units? I loved them in PzC but boy did they get hammered by the enemy airforce. Towed artillery seems much more resilient to air attack than mobile artillery. And given you can often move and dismount, the mobile stuff seems less valuable in PzC2 than PzC.

Personally I keep my rocket halftracks with my main force, which is always under an 88mm umbrella. occasionally a 20mm somewhere mixed in.

Kerensky wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:43 pm I luv my OS too much. I always stick to the smallest calibre of artillery with the longest range. 105mm, Wespe, and 170mm if I need range 4 counterbattery.

And I keep my artillery generally with no OS, because they are slot heavy. And they reduce the same amount of entrenchment regardless of OS, which is the primary job I need them to do (suppression too of course)

And you can split artillery for that extra entrenchment killing lol

Esp on Trench Slog this can be a bit helpful.

I don't do this, it feels too gamey, but it's possible.

nexusno2000 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:53 am And you can split artillery for that extra entrenchment killing lol

Esp on Trench Slog this can be a bit helpful.

I don't do this, it feels too gamey, but it's possible.

Yea it's that final caveat that I want to do reasonable suppression damage that makes me not endorse the 'split arty' tactic.

Besides, creating multitudes of weak arty units is just putting extra burden on my screening forces, because making sure arty has AT support/is protected is pretty vital, especially on East Front where Soviet armored counterattacks are not uncommon.

econ21 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:57 am

Nalikill wrote: ↑Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:13 amAs soon as they became available I added 2 Rocket Wagons.

How are you finding their vulnerability against air units? I loved them in PzC but boy did they get hammered by the enemy airforce. Towed artillery seems much more resilient to air attack than mobile artillery. And given you can often move and dismount, the mobile stuff seems less valuable in PzC2 than PzC.

Usually I've just been dealing with it. I'll try to pair them with towed AA guns when I need to or station fighter escorts above them but yeah they get SHREDDED by the lightest tap from an airforce. On the flipside, the enemy will send out individual planes to bomb it if they have to, even without fighter support, so it does also serve to lure out their air force for destruction.

On most of the missions, the enemy air force has been small enough that you can annihilate it within the first 10 turns or so and then you have free reign of the map in the air. If that wasn't the case I'd probably be investing more into mobile AA guns and might've swapped to more towed guns.