Slitherine

I thought the whole purpose of using the SIG33 Sturmpanzer (Bison) was to mechanize the SIG33 gun so that it could provide direct Arty support to spearheads.

But when I look at the units, I see that only the division heavy bn of 150mm howitzers can assist my front line units against a tank attack and only if adjacent to the defending unit.

why isn't "AT support" a characteristic of direct fire arty such as the SIG33?

am I missing some arcane info?

The Dev decided to separate Art into 'light' [ArtySupport trait] and 'heavy' [ATSupport trait].
ArtySupport defends against soft targets, ATSupport defends against hard targets.
It is not German, it is all Arty.
Note 150mm have both.

The theory is that the low HA of smaller caliber guns made their utility against tanks minimal.
Although the main point was to boost towed AT [and AA which can switch to AT].

dalfrede wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:11 pm The Dev decided to separate Art into 'light' [ArtySupport trait] and 'heavy' [ATSupport trait].
ArtySupport defends against soft targets, ATSupport defends against hard targets.
It is not German, it is all Arty.
Note 150mm have both.

The theory is that the low HA of smaller caliber guns made their utility against tanks minimal.
Although the main point was to boost towed AT [and AA which can switch to AT].

think it is a good improvement, and gives purpose to cheap towed AT weapons and AA

tucsonbandit wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:26 pm

dalfrede wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:11 pm The Dev decided to separate Art into 'light' [ArtySupport trait] and 'heavy' [ATSupport trait].
ArtySupport defends against soft targets, ATSupport defends against hard targets.
It is not German, it is all Arty.
Note 150mm have both.

The theory is that the low HA of smaller caliber guns made their utility against tanks minimal.
Although the main point was to boost towed AT [and AA which can switch to AT].

think it is a good improvement, and gives purpose to cheap towed AT weapons and AA

Not really.

It just makes the 15cm artillery way better than anything else.

This is NOT about the ability of towed AT guns "AT support" to respond against a tank that attacks my friendly tank.

This is about the same trait "AT support" that is given to heavy division guns which doctrinally are in the rear, to fire in direct lay if adjacent to a friendly tank, while the guns built specifically for that role, the SIG33 are not given the trait.

Once upon a time, I was a career Regular Army Armor officer. I well understand the doctrine (AOBC, AOAC, C&GSC) and employment of Artillery in support of tanks in the defense. You fire arty against tanks in the defense, not to kill them, but to get suppression, and obscuration, by forcing a button up. direct fire arty, even of small caliber is more responsive in this exact mission.

buttoned up enemy tanks can't locate and engage friendly tanks

tell me it's a game balance thing, sure, but don't tell me it is authentic...

nexusno2000 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 8:51 pm
It just makes the 15cm artillery way better than anything else.

I disagree, I far prefer lighter artillery for their lower slot consumption. I need my arty to break entrenchment, not do damage.

But to each their own, there is no true 'correct' answer it's all about choice and preference.

I disagree, I far prefer lighter artillery for their lower slot consumption. I need my arty to break entrenchment, not do damage.

pretty much my point when I complain it devalues the role of an SIG33 as a nearly front line support unit.

A lot of player maybe havent notice this as the O/P didnt seem to see all units have their own traits .. Some arty will support fire when an adjacent unit is attacked with soft attack . Some arty will support fire when adjacent unit is attacked with hard attack .. Some will support fire when adjacent unit is attacked by heavy and soft attacks..

But all units have traits.. If you look closely you can see the trait icons... example nearly all tanks have the overun abilty trait. Some tanks have more traits like flame tanks that are like engineers they can ignor entrenchment and be bunker busters etc..

1 question I have is if an arty has very good soft and hard attack it seem to me it should have both traits .. to not protect an adjacent tank that maybe was foolishy put into a forest and is now getting attacked by infantry does seem odd

I dont know if this is a bug but My AT trait arty did not protect a 128mm AT gun that I tested to be attacked by other AT and other tanks ..
I found a bug with my 21 Arty that has battery response fire to other arty that would only fire back some times I had an issue when the enemy tries to a unit of mine when it is 4 hex from mine that mine didnt fire but if it was 3 hexes away it did.. Yet when I did the same test with another enemy arty that was right next to it it would respond with return arty fire from 3 or 4 hexes..

1 good thing about hot seat you can test a lot of mechanics.

As for the 15 arty being the best I dont agree .. a hummel can support with both soft and hard also but it doesnt have the trait of the 21 arty of battery response. If you look at all of your army units traits you maybe surprised how they vary and the uses they can be used for.

Real_MultiPlayer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 9:33 pm A lot of player maybe havent notice this as the O/P didnt seem to see all units have their own traits .. Some arty will support fire when an adjacent unit is attacked with soft attack . Some arty will support fire when adjacent unit is attacked with hard attack .. Some will support fire when adjacent unit is attacked by heavy and soft attacks..

But all units have traits.. If you look closely you can see the trait icons... example nearly all tanks have the overun abilty trait. Some tanks have more traits like flame tanks that are like engineers they can ignor entrenchment and be bunker busters etc..

yes, I understand and read the traits.

I also had this question why can an arty not fire in support when it is not next to the target but it is in range of the attacker?

It makes sense for AT tank not to have 3-4 range but why cant the arty ? Also question does support fire at 100% of its potential or limited?

If arty could support from further away maybe an option is to consider diminishing returns in subsequent support

I have already see posted else where about overun should also have diminishing returns so that maybe after overrun 1 unit the next attempt to overun should be using 75% attack and if successful the next attempt at 50% would seem a realistic way to model this. Especially were some heros could be very over powered.

That would make artillery ridiculous.

panzeh wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:11 am That would make artillery ridiculous.

Some artillery is quite powerful. Park a 170mm+ gun on a hill or mountain, and you have 5 hex radius range counter battery fire. I still have nightmares over Gothic Line scenario, and I definitely don't want all artillery to behave this way.

Kerensky wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:45 am

panzeh wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:11 am That would make artillery ridiculous.

Some artillery is quite powerful. Park a 170mm+ gun on a hill or mountain, and you have 5 hex radius range counter battery fire. I still have nightmares over Gothic Line scenario, and I definitely don't want all artillery to behave this way.

Yeah, definitely. Blobs involving AT units can already be pretty annoying, with artillery doing carte-blanche defensive fire, you'd almost have to use loss-leader tactics to waste their ammo if you wanted to ever attack a position.

Kerensky wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:45 am

panzeh wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 12:11 am That would make artillery ridiculous.

Some artillery is quite powerful. Park a 170mm+ gun on a hill or mountain, and you have 5 hex radius range counter battery fire. I still have nightmares over Gothic Line scenario, and I definitely don't want all artillery to behave this way.

It is entirely relative to how much damage is done by the Arty in Support mode. I see you have taken 1 line out of context not responded to the entirety of the post.
I ask a lot of questions about the games mechanics and am finding very little answers.

Do I have to ask somewhere else ? Why are some posts responded to that don't even pose any questions? A re the questions too hard?
I am at a loss to where am I supposed to find out the answers if not in this official forum?

Also Bomber planes can very easily take out arty if there is too much of any one unit type then considering the very limited amount of unit slots you have the army will be unbalanced.

No 1 type of unit army will do well in this game . Its combined forces .. or rock paper scissor game play.

Real_MultiPlayer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2020 11:48 pm I also had this question why can an arty not fire in support when it is not next to the target but it is in range of the attacker?

It makes sense for AT tank not to have 3-4 range but why cant the arty ? Also question does support fire at 100% of its potential or limited?

If arty could support from further away maybe an option is to consider diminishing returns in subsequent support

I have already see posted else where about overun should also have diminishing returns so that maybe after overrun 1 unit the next attempt to overun should be using 75% attack and if successful the next attempt at 50% would seem a realistic way to model this. Especially were some heros could be very over powered.

AA is very powerful being able to defend within its' range. The only reason it's not OP is the narrow circumstances in which AA kick in. To have the same mechanic with arty would be OP. I could do the same thing I do with AA, place it beyond spotting range where it is effectively immune to counter battery fire and you wouldn't know it's there until you attack. Having to be adjacent goes back to PG on DOS, and we see it every iteration because it works.

I wonder if people even read before they post.

First read what I wrote % of damage done diminishing returns this crap is very easy to balance.

And for you information PG2 did have arty work in exactly this way and it was not O/P

If you buy 10 tanks do you say tanks are over powered if that all you buy then AT guns Bombers and infantry will destroy them.

Seriously read exactly what was written and don't tell me it was over powered when it wasn't this was how it used to work perfectly fine in PG2

I do realize many of you were not even born 23 years ago but do they not teach people who to read in school anymore?

Real_MultiPlayer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:42 am I wonder if people even read before they post.

First read what I wrote % of damage done diminishing returns this crap is very easy to balance.

And for you information PG2 did have arty work in exactly this way and it was not O/P

If you buy 10 tanks do you say tanks are over powered if that all you buy then AT guns Bombers and infantry will destroy them.

Seriously read exactly what was written and don't tell me it was over powered when it wasn't this was how it used to work perfectly fine in PG2

I do realize many of you were not even born 23 years ago but do they not teach people who to read in school anymore?

Easy no need to get triggered, people don’t always like to write long answer or has the time.

As stated it’s a design choice, I think it’s a good one for even with diminish return it would lead in all cases to a frontline with infantry tanks, AT behind and artillery behind AT, maybe realistic but quite boring.

Yes it might be able to balance with the %idea but I’m not sure it’s worth it. The gameplay now forces you to make choices and also risk your artillery abit more.

Real_MultiPlayer wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2020 7:42 am I wonder if people even read before they post.

First read what I wrote % of damage done diminishing returns this crap is very easy to balance.

And for you information PG2 did have arty work in exactly this way and it was not O/P

If you buy 10 tanks do you say tanks are over powered if that all you buy then AT guns Bombers and infantry will destroy them.

Seriously read exactly what was written and don't tell me it was over powered when it wasn't this was how it used to work perfectly fine in PG2

I do realize many of you were not even born 23 years ago but do they not teach people who to read in school anymore?

I did read what was written. If you make the attack power low at range, you just end up inviting loss-leader tactics to waste the arty ammo before real attacks, since support fire is not a choice. If you make it too high, you have to do it just to get an attack in with anything.

Ammo is re-supply at the beginning of each turn unless you are encircled or something so thats not a valid point