Slitherine

First off, no, I have not read thru the forum because I'm not sure of my interest in this title. I own the first, played it over a weekend and never again since. It has not made its way onto either of my newest computers. That said, will there be a option to replace the sprites (or whatever they are) with NATO counters? If no, i can assure you that i will have no interest in this game.

Thanks in advance,
Rake

TheRake wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:36 pm First off, no, I have not read thru the forum because I'm not sure of my interest in this title. I own the first, played it over a weekend and never again since. It has not made its way onto either of my newest computers. That said, will there be a option to replace the sprites (or whatever they are) with NATO counters? If no, i can assure you that i will have no interest in this game.

Thanks in advance,
Rake

No.

TheRake wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:36 pm First off, no, I have not read thru the forum because I'm not sure of my interest in this title. I own the first, played it over a weekend and never again since. It has not made its way onto either of my newest computers. That said, will there be a option to replace the sprites (or whatever they are) with NATO counters? If no, i can assure you that i will have no interest in this game.

Thanks in advance,
Rake

No. Its one of those questions we we get asked a lot.

We looked into it briefly and the NATO symbols do not cover the range of units we need to be able to show. Even our reduced symbol set used in the strategic view, were we only show the unit type, couldn't be shown with just NATO symbols. We'd of had to make stuff up, or combine symbols that were never designed to be combined, which defeats the object. ( I did ask for some help on here when other asked for their use )

So no. If thats what you need in a game, it's not the game for you.

P

NATO Icon Crises:

Some individuals have passionate love of 'NATO-Icons' for whatever reason... so if it is/was possible...could not they be catered to... if it's not too much of a sacrifice in time-effort & resources.

Personally I have no-use for 'NATO-Icons'... as I find that they can confuse the confusable...and are not appealing to look at. So!... like Marie Antoinette ... reportedly stated to the starving peasants in France...during their revolutionary upheaval period... "Let Them Eat Cake".

Will it be possible to mod the design, content and / or behaviour of the strength plates?

I would like to e.g.
- lower the plate opacity for units that don't have actions remaining
- add a little symbol inside the plate that indicates unit specialization (e.g. paratrooper, mountaineer, engineer...)
- add a little red ribbon if that unit has hero traits that buff itself
- add a little blue ribbon if that unit has hero traits that buff other / adjacent units
- replace the little movement arrow on the plate with two circles / one ellipse if an infatry unit has a wheeled / (half ) tracked transport attached

Will any of that be possible?

Alternatively, will there be any customization options for strength plates other than their scale?

Patrick Ward wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:05 pm

TheRake wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 4:36 pm First off, no, I have not read thru the forum because I'm not sure of my interest in this title. I own the first, played it over a weekend and never again since. It has not made its way onto either of my newest computers. That said, will there be a option to replace the sprites (or whatever they are) with NATO counters? If no, i can assure you that i will have no interest in this game.

Thanks in advance,
Rake

No. Its one of those questions we we get asked a lot.

We looked into it briefly and the NATO symbols do not cover the range of units we need to be able to show. Even our reduced symbol set used in the strategic view, were we only show the unit type, couldn't be shown with just NATO symbols. We'd of had to make stuff up, or combine symbols that were never designed to be combined, which defeats the object. ( I did ask for some help on here when other asked for their use )

So no. If thats what you need in a game, it's not the game for you.

P

There should be an option other than just using the current Sprits, Nato or modified Nato.
Most WWII games do.

I will not buy a game without NATO counters.

wfzimmerman wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:56 pm I will not buy a game without NATO counters.

The reason Panzer Corp 2 was made was to bring it up to date graphically...with beautiful 3D units. Having and using NATO unit symbols instead of the 3D unit models would defeat the purpose of this game even existing. I can't understand why anyoe would want to do such a thing. And aren't there already thousands of games out there with NATO symbols. Go with these.

No Panzer General game has ever had NATO icons.

Kerensky wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:09 pm No Panzer General game has ever had NATO icons.

And I hope it stays that way.

I agree with the OP for the range of reasons that can be found in various posts that complain about clarity/muddiness.

However, I put aside my preference for unit data over eye candy and purchased Order of Battle 6 months ago and now PC2. Very similar style of game.
Although PC2 is a next gen graphics game the issue of clarity is still evident. Sprites provide very little, if any, gain in gaming other than a little eye candy. Let's hope there is some type of breakthrough in this regard.

I also find the sprites distort the battlefield scale. It feels more like a unit action rather than a Corps/Division scale battlefield.
The maps are attractive, although it can be more difficult to discern the shape of the ground - eg height versus even the old cardboard maps of years ago.
Although I think the scale of the sprites is not right, they are of contemporary quality.
This quality of graphics and a Squad Leader/Battlefront Combat Mission scale could be epic!

If sprites bring a new generation of players to the genre then begrudgingly we have to join the party.

I think the user interface is attractive and, so far, seems to work well for me.

Looking forward to seeing how the range of multiplayer options work out.

The big leap forward I am hoping for is in the SP experience. Even dinosaur gamers will/should put aside their grievances if they can get an entertaining challenge from the AI. Have not put enough time into PC2 to give a definitive answer here. Need to check the different levels of AI gameplay. I was very impressed with OOB AI and am expecting PC2 to move another step forward in that regard.

So, I appreciate the Op's point of view but so far I have found the quality of the Ai to be a worthy opponent and provides hours of entertainment.

I think there is a place for NATO-counters in the right game, but this isn't really one of them.

When you look at something like the Hearts of Iron series, I'll always prefer to play with counters. You are operating on a strategic level, you send around divisions (and before the last game even corps and army HQs). That's what NATO-counters are ideal for. There are is only a preset number of differing types of divisions.

Panzer Corps, just like Panzer General, works on a different level. You don't just see whether something is a light, medium or heavy tank, you see which actual tank it is, and on top of that, which version of the tank. That's not something NATO-counters could ever portray correctly. An early Panzer III would have the same NATO-counter as a Panther. That's losing a lot of information. You couldn't see with a quick glance which of your units is where, and you would have little idea about what type of enemy you are currently facing, causing you to have to mouse over every single enemy unit to get a proper view. That's way too complicated and time-consuming.

George_Parr wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:57 pm I think there is a place for NATO-counters in the right game, but this isn't really one of them.

Totally agree. I love NATO counters in other war games, but Panzer General and Steel Panthers are the two strategy games where I can't imagine using counters. It's just not right.

MickMannock wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:15 pm

George_Parr wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:57 pm I think there is a place for NATO-counters in the right game, but this isn't really one of them.

Totally agree. I love NATO counters in other war games, but Panzer General and Steel Panthers are the two strategy games where I can't imagine using counters. It's just not right.

"I can't imagine using counters. It's just not right".
For this particular 'Game'(Pzc2)... i 2nd that motion!.

TokyoDan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:06 pm Having and using NATO unit symbols would defeat the purpose of this game even existing. I can't understand why anyoe would want to do such a thing.

Because reading a map is more easy than direct terrain and ennemies, every general would tell you that. Reading terrain and reporting ennemies is not the job of the general, but the reco.
3D should be here for the show (like for the missing replay feature), not for playing a paused strategical game.
Or maybe that's why PG finally agrees its loss of General name with PC2? that's a downgrade?

Hahaha. Thanks for the schooling. I didn't know

I guess you are a hardcore wargamer. I'm not and I've never been a general. I was under the impression that this is more of a beer and pretzels wargame.

TokyoDan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:36 am I was under the impression that this is more of a beer and pretzels wargame.

It is. Hence no NATO symbols (among other things).

However, I'm not fond of NATO counters for this game, but for the more german counters.
Informative counters instead of uneasy 3D.

ErissN6 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:56 pm

TokyoDan wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2020 10:06 pm Having and using NATO unit symbols would defeat the purpose of this game even existing. I can't understand why anyoe would want to do such a thing.

Because reading a map is more easy than direct terrain and ennemies, every general would tell you that. Reading terrain and reporting ennemies is not the job of the general, but the reco.
3D should be here for the show (like for the missing replay feature), not for playing a paused strategical game.
Or maybe that's why PG finally agrees its loss of General name with PC2? that's a downgrade?

It makes reading a map easier when you deal with standard unit-types like armies, corps, divisions, brigades and regiments. But that simply isn't true here. Neither the NATO-counters nor the symbols used by the Germans during WW2 cover the necessary information for the units that exist in this very game. They deal with generic types, be it strength of the unit, unit-type in terms of means of protection and mobility and all that sort of stuff. None of them cover what the unit actually consists of in terms of material, apart from maybe the counters for German artillery batteries (batteries, not battalions or even regiments), but even those do not differentiate between two variants of the same gun. Not to mention that once you break it down to that kind of level, you are into chinese signs territory, where a tiny difference leads to a completely different meaning. Good luck getting anyone who didn't already know them to understand these minute differences. It's still a game, not a manual to learn the German organizational symbols of WW2 for a very odd history exam.

None of that has anything to do with 2D or 3D, and everything to do with the units that exist in the game. And that isn't just true for Panzer Corps 2, but also for Panzer Corps, Panzer General and Panzer General 2.
Ignoring that is like saying about a sports managing game "it's nice and all, but I would prefer if I could play the games myself".

George_Parr wrote: ↑Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:33 pm Neither the NATO-counters nor the symbols used by the Germans during WW2 cover the necessary information for the units that exist in this very game.

You should be right. But I'm so fed up with 3D and bad map alternative to play in this new game that at now I however prefer any counter...
At now I'm even thinking about uninstalling, due to bugs and ill conceived strat' map as a normal way to play, but I'll wait for the patches.