Slitherine

We've been playing with V3 long enough now to properly evaluate it. I think most players agree that this is the best version yet, with a quicker, more decisive gameplay. Unfortunately, as a successful rule set, FOG-AM is probably at its lowest level yet. It's clear from Tim Porter's recent end of year report that player numbers have dwindled to the extent that MeG now has more competitive players. FOG languishes at 6th out of 7 of the most popular rulesets, barely above DBM at the bottom. I've tried in the past to make suggestions to try and reverse the process. Suggestions like a handicap system, which works perfectly well at my club MAWS, have generally met with derision. I can't help wondering if anyone is bothered at all. Anyway, here are a few ideas to try and improve matters. Sadly, I suspect they'll meet with the usual apathy but, what the heck, here goes...

One of the appeals of ancients, surely the most popular wargaming era currently being played, is the tremendous number of different armies that can be fielded. Whilst Version 3 does give a better game, with heavy foot armies gaining in popularity, one once popular type has virtually disappeared. Cavalry lancer armies such as Bosporans and Sarmatians are rarely, if ever seen. It's similar with the Steppes terrain category they used to like fighting in. I think this may be down to the three dice on impact which, although contributing to the game's improvement, have made units of four bases of cavalry very vulnerable, especially as a base loss now gives an immediate minus one for 25% losses. Would it be such a drastic or dramatic change if horse mounted troops got a plus one on the death roll (as elephants) at impact? This might help and bring a popular troop type back into play.

As for the disappearing Steppes, the last time I started a game with Terry he suggested we dice for who was the invader. Invader? I don't think the word is mentioned anywhere in the rules. We used to dice for initiative, where a more competent general and superior numbers of mounted troops could give an army an advantage at deployment. This has NOTHING TO DO with who the invader is. Let's please bring back the terrain choice to any of the terrain types listed for BOTH armies. That, along with a little death roll boost for lancers, might reintroduce that missing variety.

Finally, a suggestion for army lists. Although we now have three excellent army list books there are some armies missing that were in the original set of books (my own Early Zhou Chinese being one). What about a fourth book along the lines of The Lost Scrolls? It could include some of the missing lists and maybe some revised ones. But please lets have it as a free PDF download! In fact, couldn't we now have ALL army list books available as free PDF downloads? Other sets, like the now most popular set ADLG, include all lists with the rule book, why can't we? Free army list books might just tempt some of those missing players to have another look...

Whatever happens FOG-AM is going to be around for a long time. There are going to be players who aren't going to change sets no matter what. But carry on as we have in the past and that pool of players is going to continue shrinking. It could be so much better...

I whole hearted agree with you on bringing back some of the old lists. I can think of several right off the cuff that I would like to see re-appear in an official form and I would think pdfs would be the most economical way of distribution even if they have a nominal charge.

I am not so sure that giving a boost to lancer/shooty cavalry armies at impact is a solution. I see players attempting to min and max their options in open tournaments and taking that list that maximizes their advantages. FOG works best in period which is why I prefer themed tournaments and campaigns.

The biggest issue I am encountering here in the US is the availability and cost of the rules. There is only one outlet in the US that sells the rules and I have found in the past it easier to order direct from Caliver but that has its own inherent cost (approx $200 US for all 4 books before shipping). The lack of availability at the end of V2 was a serious impediment to recruitment then. The difficulty in getting the books (and the cost) is preventing growth here in the US now.

.The difficulty in getting the books (and the cost) is preventing growth here in the US now.

A great shame! I would have thought making the set available as a PDF would have been a smart move. Better to sell some at, say, a tenner than none in book form.

The world of FOG-AM really needs some positive action from its leadership.

ChrisTofalos wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:59 am

.The difficulty in getting the books (and the cost) is preventing growth here in the US now.

A great shame! I would have thought making the set available as a PDF would have been a smart move. Better to sell some at, say, a tenner than none in book form.

The world of FOG-AM really needs some positive action from its leadership.

Making it easy to get the books outside of the UK should be a given. One of the fundamental challenges for the game in recent years is that the owners of the business don't play the game so do not directly see the issuesand opportunities.

Making it easy to get the books outside of the UK should be a given.

Why not inside the UK, too? I recently bought a PDF copy of ADLG for just €5. Doing similar for FOG (and the army list books - which were included with ADLG) might just tempt some of the dozens and dozens of players we've lost to have another look.

Player levels for FOG-AM are at an all-time low. DRASTIC action is urgently required.

ChrisTofalos wrote: ↑Fri Feb 14, 2020 4:38 pm

Making it easy to get the books outside of the UK should be a given.

Why not inside the UK, too? I recently bought a PDF copy of ADLG for just €5. Doing similar for FOG (and the army list books - which were included with ADLG) might just tempt some of the dozens and dozens of players we've lost to have another look.

Player levels for FOG-AM are at an all-time low. DRASTIC action is urgently required.

Did you read my second sentence? That's why.

I recently bought a PDF copy of ADLG for just €5.

I believe that is because the current version is out of print and a new version will be published later this year. I suspect the new version will cost rather more than a fiver.

I am reliably informed that it's Slitherine who own the copyright to FOG-AM. A bit odd that a commercial company is responsible for the poor distribution of one of its products but that's the way it appears.

So what is the future for FOG and its many (or dwindling) number of players? Not exactly bright anyway! Could the copyright be bought out with some sort of Kickstarter appeal and then the rules and army list books distributed as free PDFs? Might be one way to improve matters. Any other ideas?

Quite clear to me, in doing a round robin of the likely rule candidates for ancients, that FoG AM is now as dead as a Dodo and may as well be written off for anyone new to the ancients scene, heck, even DBMM has more life in it. ADLG seems to be by far the most popular and dominant set. I far prefer ADLG to FOG, especially the smaller tables, lower figure count and less time needed to play but I always feel it's lacking something compared to say DBMM. Despite ADLG being more dominant as a whole there are still pockets (like where I am) where DBMM is still the dominant rule set, which for me is no bad thing (but ADLG is far less confusing). FoG AM on the other hand, nowhere to be seen. The fact that the last post here was in 2020 speaks volumes!

There might still be some life in the Dodo. Either that or I must have mis-read the notifications for all the tournaments where FoG AM is being played.

Or new players like me who are just getting into it because it seems the most appealing of all the rulesets.

I will say it is hard to find IRL players in my area though, so I am trying to setup a way to play virtually.

Empgamer wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 3:59 am Quite clear to me, in doing a round robin of the likely rule candidates for ancients, that FoG AM is now as dead as a Dodo and may as well be written off for anyone new to the ancients scene, heck, even DBMM has more life in it. ADLG seems to be by far the most popular and dominant set. I far prefer ADLG to FOG, especially the smaller tables, lower figure count and less time needed to play but I always feel it's lacking something compared to say DBMM. Despite ADLG being more dominant as a whole there are still pockets (like where I am) where DBMM is still the dominant rule set, which for me is no bad thing (but ADLG is far less confusing). FoG AM on the other hand, nowhere to be seen. The fact that the last post here was in 2020 speaks volumes!

In South East Asia perhaps. In the UK we have a small but very active number of players and over a dozen competitions a year. Several of the players are new to ancients.

Empgamer wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2023 3:59 am Quite clear to me, in doing a round robin of the likely rule candidates for ancients, that FoG AM is now as dead as a Dodo and may as well be written off for anyone new to the ancients scene, heck, even DBMM has more life in it. ... fact that the last post here was in 2020 speaks volumes!

If it's dead why the F are you trying so hard to recruit players for your pet rule set here?