Slitherine

Jaques Wilputte made the following point:

Varangian Equipment
As the Emperor’s bodyguard, the Varangian Guards would be expected to have helmet, armour, shield and a good weapon as a bare minimum, and those without them would have been supplied from the Imperial Armoury. And those who had their own gear would have gradually replaced it as equipment broke or wore out.
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth ... Armour.htm

and by the same autor
Varangian Armour
It would be reasonable to assume that as Imperial bodyguards, the Varangians would be expected to wear armour in battle. If only for self-protection, the Emperor would want to ensure that those charged with keeping him alive were not killed themselves. However, it is unlikely that many new recruits had their own armour; in northern and western Europe, the recruitment pools from which these guardsmen came, it was scarce and expensive. It is my contention that the majority of new Varangian Guardsmen, arriving without armour, or even helmets, would have been supplied with Byzantine armour from the Imperial arsenal.

Let me start by surprising a few people by going in the other direction on a Byzantine troop type. While I agree with Jacques that the Varangian/Rus mercenaries of the early period should be allowed the option to be armored and superior, I'm not sure that even after 1042AD, I'd ever consider the Varangian Guard to be either Elite or Heavily armored in sufficient numbers to constitute a BG of 8. While some of the wealthier or more favored Varangians may have been so equipped it could hardly have been the majority. Certainly they should be armoured but heavily armored, not so sure. As a friend pointed out, it kind of smacks of the old WRG Reg A SHI troop type.

Paul G

I think there is a max of 6 in the Nikes

From discussion I have had with some autors , it seems that there is no real precise description of a varangian guard armor before somewere around 1200 . so much of what will be discussed is guesswork .

From all I read ( and am still reading ) there seem to be the following concencus : originaly, foreigners and foreign units ( Russ/Varangians / Normans /petchnegs and so on ) would use their own equipment . But as this equipment would wear out, imperial supplies would be delivered if need be . So some of those units would have a mix of original and byzantine equipment .

Russ and varangians are regularly described as wearing mail and tagmata units as weariung even heavier equipment ( armbraces and so on ) .

It would seem logical for a unit that served as imperial bodyguard to be well equiped as a ruler would not want his bodyguard to die too quickly . So in the case of the varangian, in any cas during the Basill II period , I would seem logical for them to be heavily armored . Let's say 990-1025 . I say so because there is a real probability and I admitt, I think we will never know the truth . So it is all guesswork .

What I suggest is the following : let the possibility to use the russ/varangian as HF, protected , offensive spearmen till 1042 and give the possibility to upgrade 4-6 bases ( or 4 ) to heavily armored and to reflect the varangian legend superior or elite + offensive spearmen . There might also be discussion about the use of axes ( heavy weapon ) but I found nothing to confirm the use of axes except that byzantines called the varangians the axe bearers ! .

After 1042 I have few information on the status of the varangians but it seem it was always considered as an elite unit .

Jacques

Sounds to me your best bet at this stage is to list what information is available, what the source is, with the date it refers to and work from there. Educated guesswork is always needed for lists but you do need to be as clear as possible what the evidence you do have actually is.

Varangian guard :in the actual army list ( Decline and fall , pg 74-75 ), we must wait 1042 to create the varangian guard as an drilled , armoured or heavily armoured unit HF . Before they are treated as undrilled, protected, offensive spearmen HF .
What do we really know of the early varangian guard . More or less 6.000 varangians were given in 988 to Basile II by Wladimir of Kiev. For political reasons,they serve as the Emperor’s bodyguard and their strength is still recorded as 6.000 in 999. Years latter, Ana Komnena will write about their loyalty which seem to be considered as a tradition ( even if some did make some assassination attempt on Nikephoros III ) . They were well paid (sources Warren Treadgold and Ian Heath see below ) . originaly the varangian guard was composed mainly by Swedes, Danes ,Russ… ) and latter from +/- the end of the 11th century mainly by Anglo-Saxons .
Around 1000 AD they are regularly referred to as the emperor’s guard or bodyguard
In 1034, they are defined as : Palation Varangoi ( Varangian guard ) and also in the Re Militari of Nikephoros Ouranos ( C 990-1000).
The Laxdaela saga mentions several Norsemen returning home around 1030 with part of byzantine equipment / uniform which point to an organized unit . There is no mention of armor but silks, beautiful clothes
They are dismissed in 1040 as a guard unit and come back in 1042 . ( sources Army of the dark ages 600-1066 , Ian Heath and Osprey 89 same author )

There is an illustration taken to be of Varangian Guards from the Madrid Skylitzes Chronicle (fol. 26v-a)
We are not sure the soldiers are varangian guards . There is doubt about it . But the soldiers are in heavy armor ( mail or so it seems )

Raffaele D’Amato and Giorgio Albertini tell us of an enamel cloisonné preserved at Munich and representing a Varangian officer wearing a lamellar armour ( The Eastern Romans pg 30-31 .)

Guesswork based on simple logic :
Serving as the emperor’s bodyguard, it would be logical for them to be armored . Generally speaking, a ruler has a tendency to give a better equipment to his guard unit . The empire was rich and had access to good armor . so why would the imperial varangian guard unit NOT have access to such equipment . We must also take into account the fact that the varangians used as bodyguard would have to replace lost or damaged equipment, be it swords, shields or armor . It wold not take so long before they would be more byzantine like than russ like 
Let us consider another elite unit, another historical period : 1789, french revolution , 1800, creation of the consular guard which will become in 1804 the imperial guard . In 15 years , an elite unit is created . 11 years latter it meets his fate at Waterloo . The origins of that guard unit lays in the conscript of 1789 ... a raw , untrained civilian.
So it is very likely that the varangians , hired as bodyguard and having seen many campaigns, would have understood the value of armour and organization
As Steven Lowe wrote
Varangian Equipment
As the Emperor’s bodyguard, the Varangian Guards would be expected to have helmet, armour, shield and a good weapon as a bare minimum, and those without them would have been supplied from the Imperial Armoury. And those who had their own gear would have gradually replaced it as equipment broke or wore out.
and by the same autor
Varangian Armour
It would be reasonable to assume that as Imperial bodyguards, the Varangians would be expected to wear armour in battle. If only for self-protection, the Emperor would want to ensure that those charged with keeping him alive were not killed themselves. However, it is unlikely that many new recruits had their own armour; in northern and western Europe, the recruitment pools from which these guardsmen came, it was scarce and expensive. It is my contention that the majority of new Varangian Guardsmen, arriving without armour, or even helmets, would have been supplied with Byzantine armour from the Imperial arsenal.
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth ... Armour.htm
Historical latin, greek and muslims texts described the varangians as wearing chainmail ( see http://tabulaenovaeexercituum.pbwiki.co ... ine%20list

What was the offensive weapon of the varangians : some sources speak of spears , others speak of the varangians as the axe-bearing guard or barbarians . So it is open guess !
My own conclusions are that there is a high probability or possibility that the varangians were at least equipped with chainmails, perhaps as the emperor’s bodyguard with vambraces and so on . So from 1000AD they might be considered as armoured or heavily armoured . Superior or elite to reflect their loyalty to the emperor and ferocity in battle, drilled because most are veterans ( even if there was a flow of new recruits ) . I would also leave the possibility for them to be classified heavy weapon . as he name axe-bearing guard must have it’s source somewhere !
Some internet sources
http://www.geocities.com/egfrothos/Adoption.html
http://www.searchmanuscript.com/?tag=varangian-guard
http://historyofwarfare.blogspot.com/20 ... ntium.html
http://www.baronyofvatavia.org/articles ... 03as38.php
http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/a ... appas1.htm
BOOKS
Eric McGerr : Sowing the dragon’s teeth – Byzantine warfare in the tenth century
John Haldon : warfare state and society in the byzantine world 565-1204 and by the same author Byzantine Warfare
Ian Heath : Byzantine Armies 886-1118, osprey Men at Arms 89 + Armies of the Dark ges 600-1066 ( WRG publications )
Raffaele D’Amato and Giogio Albertini : The Eastern Romans 330-1461 AD
Warren Treadgold : Byzantium and Its Army 284-1081 .

Hope this helps and if some people have other sources, they are welcome to make hem known .

Jacques Wilputte

So here is my proposal for the varangian guard :

Rus or varangian mercenaries , only before 1042, heavy foot, protected, average, undrilled, offensive spearmen, 6-8 bases for a max total of 12
upgrade from 1000 , heavy foot, armoured or heavily armoured,superior or elite, drilled, offensive spearmen or heavy weapon ; 4-6 bases max total 6 .

I suppose even Nick might admit there is enough evidence , enough to make it feel right !

So might we ask the conceptors if there is enough evidence considering the texts, historical sources, books by Ian Heath and so on

I just opened the list to heavy weapon because of the name "axe bearers" !

I'm at work and dont have the time or the resources on me to have an opinion on the matter, but I will suggest a book. The Varangians of Byzantium by Sigfus Blondal is considered to be one of the most exhaustive resources on the Varangians. He uses Norse, Slavonic, and Greek sources.

vamrat wrote:I'm at work and dont have the time or the resources on me to have an opinion on the matter, but I will suggest a book. The Varangians of Byzantium by Sigfus Blondal is considered to be one of the most exhaustive resources on the Varangians. He uses Norse, Slavonic, and Greek sources.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Varangians-Byza ... 567&sr=1-1

Heres another one

I ordered it for the pleasure of reading it . It was next high on my list anyway

But they might argue it was written years ago and so on and so on ...

Ok , now I have read the book "The Varangians of Byzantium" .

Concerning the equipment of the varangians, once they are in the service of the emperor as a guard unit, nothing is sure and the only description dates from 1200 AD . But many sources describes them equipped with chainmails and armbraces and so on .

About the creation as a guard unit, there is the description in psellus's Chronographia : " The emperor Basilknew the folly of the Romans and, since a select force of Tauro-Scythians ( i.e. Russians )had joined him recently, he trained them and putthemin a division with other foreign troops, and so sent them against the ennemy."

So they seem to be trained from the beginning . Quickly some of those varangians will become know as "the Varangians of the city" in distinction from the other varangians units, who were know as "Varangians outside the city" . Ther famous and feared varangian guard which was to spearhead many of Basil's battles and win many victories for him were the "Varangians of the City" . As they served as a imperial guard unit , they would be rather well equiped and well before the ludicrous 1042 date that appears in he army list .

I do not know how much more it takes to convince some people that there is a real and high probability that the varangians might be upgraded as armoured/heavily armoured / drilled / superior or Elite in the early years of Basil's II reign, but here it is .

It would not take much to change it in the army list book, just in one of the errata change one line : varangians : only from 995 ( or any other possible date before the death of Basil II )

Now what is the answer of the conceptors

bahdahbum wrote:
So they seem to be trained from the beginning . Quickly some of those varangians will become know as "the Varangians of the city" in distinction from the other varangians units, who were know as "Varangians outside the city" . Ther famous and feared varangian guard which was to spearhead many of Basil's battles and win many victories for him were the "Varangians of the City" . As they served as a imperial guard unit , they would be rather well equiped and well before the ludicrous 1042 date that appears in he army list .

I take at that you think that it would be legit to allow Varangian Guard to be used alongside the pre-1042 Varangian mercenaries, as the latter would be the "Varangians outside the city" ?

Sorry for the delay , i was a bit busy .

It seems both type of units were in use at the same time . Were they used at the same time on a battlefield ...I cannot say so .

What is sure, is that it would be possible to upgrade some of the varagians as guard unit ( at least armoured, drilled , sup ) much earlier than 1042 .

But as the max is 12 varangians bases, if you upgrade one varangian unit as guard ( 6 bases ) , you might have max 6 varangian "average" and do not forget if you take some infantry , you also have to take the byzantine infantry units ( 12 battle infantry + the 6 LF )

But it changes dramaticaly the army

Wonder why Nick stays silent ...

Sadly no reaction

Lost scroll is nearly there .

So when can we rediscuss seriously the already published lists for the second lost scrolls, or the possible lists modifications such as what was discussed here

And will all the gods of FOG be ready to discuss it open minded

bahdahbum wrote:Lost scroll is nearly there .

So when can we rediscuss seriously the already published lists for the second lost scrolls,

What second Lost Scrolls?

There is a joke among many players : we are waiting for a second lost scrolls with all the updates concerning the poor armies were some units are "forgotten" or ...not rated as should be ( in our hown poor opinion )

So the best way to get this moving is to write the list - I and a few others managed to get the moderators to open a list area for contributor lists - new or corrected. So yes, I have not presented the extensively re_written Komnenon Byzantine list yet - but having, again with a few comrades, presented spadefuls of historical data and a new list (courtesy of Jim Webster) to the editor of the other set of rules and lists and had thst Komnenon list extensively officially rewritten based on the sources, that's the thing to do here; And it might just get time over the Xmas break - perhaps..... But if I do want to field the Byzantine army at Semlin I am going to have to get around to this;since the FOG list is way off I figure I ought to try and own part of the answer and present some more spade work, others should have a go too !!

Season's Greetings

David

Many historical texts or evidences have been presented ..All the work has been done , but it was never the intention to change the whole list just a small part of it: the varangian as varangian guards .

Historical evidence points to an earlier use of at least some varangians as "the varangian guard" . So trhe proposal is very simple : change the date of availability to an earlier date, like 980 AD. And if the guard is taken, reduce the availability of the other varangians from max 12 to max 6 .

A minor change, no need to rewrite a whole list for such a change . it could even easely been done in an errata . But it might seem too simple for some people ( and I am not meaning you Davidharvey ) Meanwhile I am still playing the nikes as they are , incorrectly , in the official army list

bahdahbum wrote: Meanwhile I am still playing the nikes as they are , incorrectly , in the official army list

And how is that working out for you? I have always liked the army but so far every mutation has looked too fragile and finesse oriented to do well in my crude, orcish hands.