Slitherine

Hey all,
I need to put my glorious Roman Army in the field versus some Later Seleucid Scum.
Now, don't tell him but I'm a bit scared of his pikemen, and those lancers look intimidating too.
This is the army I've put into the field versus the Gaul, and they did fairly good

1 Cavalry Cv Armoured Average Undrilled - Light spear Swordsmen - 4x 12 48
2 Cavalry Cv Armoured Average Undrilled - Light spear Swordsmen - 4x 12 48
3 H&P HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordsmen 4x 14 56
4 H&P HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordsmen 4x 14 56
5 Velites LF Protected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4x 5 20
6 Triarii HF Armoured Elite Drilled - Offensive spearmen - - 2x 16 32
7 H&P HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordsmen 4x 14 56
8 H&P HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordsmen 4x 14 56
9 Velites LF Protected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4x 5 20
10 Triarii HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordsmen 2x 16 32
11 Velites LF Protected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4x 5 20
12 H&P HF Armoured Average Drilled Impact foot Swordsmen 4x 10 40
13 H&P HF Armoured Average Drilled Impact foot Swordsmen 4x 10 40
14 Triarii HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Offensive spearmen - - 2x 13 26
Commander TC - - - - - - - 1x 35 35 General
Commander TC - - - - - - - 1x 35 35 General
Commander TC - - - - - - - 1x 35 35 General
15 Elephants EL - Average Undrilled - - - - 2x 25 50
16 It allied MF Armoured Superior Drilled Light spear Swordsmen 4x 12 48
17 It allied MF Protected Average Drilled Light spear Swordsmen 6x 7 42

Any thoughts on the army or how to take on the pike and cataphracts with the Romans

Thanks

Christophe the terrified Roman

Are the Velites allows in such small BGs?

In any case LF of 4s are mostly filler and can't fight. CLuster a few of those together into 6s or 8s.

I would get at least one BG of 8 HF so you can put a general with them to re-roll 1s and 2s.

Might consider dumping that MF group of 4 in case you need points for anything else. 4th TC.

The Lancers are mainly a threat to you CV and manuvering onto your flanks. The Pikes are tough head on and you will want width. The idea of 1 BG of 8 means that general may be able to hold the line against a line of pike so your smaller groups can collapse his flanks.

Oige1be wrote:Hey all,
I need to put my glorious Roman Army in the field versus some Later Seleucid Scum.
Now, don't tell him but I'm a bit scared of his pikemen, and those lancers look intimidating too.

You know, against the lancers yeah - they are a bit intimidating, but I don't think you need to worry so much against the Pike. It's not a walk in the park, but you're a lot more resilient than he is:

Impact - On Impact you are even with possibly a small advantage to you (Superior)
+1 Pike +1 4th Rank vs +2 Impact Foot.
Melee - On Melee you are -1 POA which is possibly evened out with your superiority.

As soon as you disrupt him he's in a world of pain. Things change DRAMATICALLY.

Melee:
+1 Pike vs +1 SSw +1 Armour

So, the way I see it is that it's fairly critical combat. Either of you go disruped it's not good. You can handle being disrupted where he can't.

So, use your Triarii against his lancers (you'll win this) and your 'Legionaries' against his pike.

You'll win easily

Have confidence!


Ian

I second the toughness of legionaires vs pike. I took a Pontic army up against a legionaire heavy late Rep army a few days ago. Had 3 pike and 2 spearmen BG broken in one turn and in most of these combats I had overlaps on the Romans.

Oige1be wrote:Hey all,
I need to put my glorious Roman Army in the field versus some Later Seleucid Scum.
Now, don't tell him but I'm a bit scared of his pikemen, and those lancers look intimidating too.
This is the army I've put into the field versus the Gaul, and they did fairly good

1 Cavalry Cv Armoured Average Undrilled - Light spear Swordsmen - 4x 12 48
2 Cavalry Cv Armoured Average Undrilled - Light spear Swordsmen - 4x 12 48
3 H&P HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordsmen 4x 14 56
4 H&P HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordsmen 4x 14 56
5 Velites LF Protected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4x 5 20
6 Triarii HF Armoured Elite Drilled - Offensive spearmen - - 2x 16 32
7 H&P HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordsmen 4x 14 56
8 H&P HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordsmen 4x 14 56
9 Velites LF Protected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4x 5 20
10 Triarii HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Impact foot Skilled swordsmen 2x 16 32
11 Velites LF Protected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4x 5 20
12 H&P HF Armoured Average Drilled Impact foot Swordsmen 4x 10 40
13 H&P HF Armoured Average Drilled Impact foot Swordsmen 4x 10 40
14 Triarii HF Armoured Superior Drilled - Offensive spearmen - - 2x 13 26
Commander TC - - - - - - - 1x 35 35 General
Commander TC - - - - - - - 1x 35 35 General
Commander TC - - - - - - - 1x 35 35 General
15 Elephants EL - Average Undrilled - - - - 2x 25 50
16 It allied MF Armoured Superior Drilled Light spear Swordsmen 4x 12 48
17 It allied MF Protected Average Drilled Light spear Swordsmen 6x 7 42

Any thoughts on the army or how to take on the pike and cataphracts with the Romans

Thanks

Christophe the terrified Roman

I use my MRR with 4 BGs of 8 average legions each with a TC attached. The Velites also in groups of 8 and protected. As long as you reach the enemy line in one go, you'll find your 32 armoured bases with generals will overlap and butcher pikes. Make sure you have two units of 4 bases in column providing rear support to the 4 legions and you'll be fine.

Julian

As soon as you disrupt him he's in a world of pain. Things change DRAMATICALLY.

Melee:
+1 Pike vs +1 SSw +1 Armour

Do not kill the phalanx too quickly

+ pike + 4th rank ( if still alive ) vs +1 SSW and + 1 armour makes it even . Ok the romans will have in that case more dice , but it is still even . And if the roman loose the shock, they are more in trouble beacause they will loose the SSW + and fight at a serrious disadvantage .

I use my MRR with 4 BGs of 8 average legions each with a TC attached. The Velites also in groups of 8 and protected. As long as you reach the enemy line in one go, you'll find your 32 armoured bases with generals will overlap and butcher pikes. Make sure you have two units of 4 bases in column providing rear support to the 4 legions and you'll be fine.

Julian

You make it sounds so easy . Well I use seleucid and I may tell you that it is not such an easy thing for both of the armies . Everybody has his own trick but I would use the roman cavalry to occupy the phalanx ( yes the CV ) , and chase the good Seleucid cavalry with the impact foot . Just try it sometimes . Lancers are shock so have to test not to charge and when they charge they are at even odds with the foot . After they have to bounce and so on you repulse them . very funny indeed .

bahdahbum wrote:

I use my MRR with 4 BGs of 8 average legions each with a TC attached. The Velites also in groups of 8 and protected. As long as you reach the enemy line in one go, you'll find your 32 armoured bases with generals will overlap and butcher pikes. Make sure you have two units of 4 bases in column providing rear support to the 4 legions and you'll be fine.

Julian

You make it sounds so easy . Well I use seleucid and I may tell you that it is not such an easy thing for both of the armies . Everybody has his own trick but I would use the roman cavalry to occupy the phalanx ( yes the CV ) , and chase the good Seleucid cavalry with the impact foot . Just try it sometimes . Lancers are shock so have to test not to charge and when they charge they are at even odds with the foot . After they have to bounce and so on you repulse them . very funny indeed .

The lancers are drilled so they can either move away easily or just sit around most of the day waiting to fail the CMT that will see them charge (with a TC they will pass on 5 or more). Besides, Triarii do the job much more efficiently. I see your point but if you are trying to win in 3,5 hours you really need to go after something you can catch and which is in sufficient numbers that you can break the army.

I much prefer to go after the pike as they aren't quite as mobile. And being shock foot you can get them to charge your velites (being protected they tend to get rid of enemy skirmishers) and break up their line. It's also unlikely that a pike army will have enough good infantry to match a frontage of 16 armoured impact foot. Anyway, that's my experience with the MRR.

Julian

I have been tinkering with a MR Roman army that is similar to yours. On first glance you seemed to have more troops than I could fit in and then I realised that you did not have the compulsory fortified camp, so you may have to rejig your army.

The camp and strict ratios for the legions really make ot hard to design a good army out of the MR Romans.

Regards
Martin

bahdahbum wrote: Do not kill the phalanx too quickly

+ pike + 4th rank ( if still alive ) vs +1 SSW and + 1 armour makes it even . Ok the romans will have in that case more dice , but it is still even . And if the roman loose the shock, they are more in trouble beacause they will loose the SSW + and fight at a serrious disadvantage .

You're right - for some reason I thought you lost the 4th rank if you went disrupted. Either way, it's a much better fight than a lot get vs pike.

Ian

why not grab some of those cretan archers? the bows are pretty good at pounding targets at a long range and being lights they can bugger off if someone comes after them. Also the superior means you get to re-roll 1's

The lancers are drilled so they can either move away easily

Not if they are in a zoc ;

It is not that easy, I know but nobody said it would be a peace of cake . And somewere one unit will charge ! There is always one unit that fails it's CMT

ottomanmjm wrote:I have been tinkering with a MR Roman army that is similar to yours. On first glance you seemed to have more troops than I could fit in and then I realised that you did not have the compulsory fortified camp, so you may have to rejig your army.
Regards
Martin

You're right but this is a "friendly" game, and we don't use a Camp, lack of miniatures to be honest.

+ pike + 4th rank ( if still alive ) vs +1 SSW and + 1 armour makes it even . Ok the romans will have in that case more dice , but it is still even . And if the roman loose the shock, they are more in trouble beacause they will loose the SSW + and fight at a serrious disadvantage .

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Check your PoA's, Skilled Swords don't count against pikes in melee, so the pikes start with a + since the Romans will still get the armour bonus.
+ for pikes at least 3 deep, and + for 4th rank of pikes (have to be steady) so pikes get a + for melee

In impact its even on the POA's
I am painting my own Selucid army to give the Romans something else to beat on besides Spanish

Oige1be wrote:You're right but this is a "friendly" game, and we don't use a Camp, lack of miniatures to be honest.

Using a few crisp banknotes weighted down with coin for each Camp lend weight to fear of it being looted.

My opponent who has MRR uses the lf in groups of 4. He basically parks them in front of my pike blocks and waits for the pikes to charge. The legionaries then usually get to take on isolated pike blocks and even if they don't win the impact they are in good shape in the melee. Average legionaries are fine for this. He uses a large contingent of average legionaries with superior spear supports and a smaller contingent of superior legionaries with elite spear support. It's all good against the seleucids.

It's always a close battle but the romans seem to have a little bit of an edge.

not what us future Selucids wanted to hear.....
I was hoping the pikes would get an advantage over the Romans and prove a more formidable foe than the ancient Spanish have proven to be so far.

footslogger wrote:My opponent who has MRR uses the lf in groups of 4. He basically parks them in front of my pike blocks and waits for the pikes to charge. The legionaries then usually get to take on isolated pike blocks and even if they don't win the impact they are in good shape in the melee. Average legionaries are fine for this. He uses a large contingent of average legionaries with superior spear supports and a smaller contingent of superior legionaries with elite spear support. It's all good against the seleucids.

It's always a close battle but the romans seem to have a little bit of an edge.

Everything can happen when it comes to rolling dices, but least we can say is that average legionaries do not start with the favour of statistics:
Initial shock is 50% per die for both
If nothing special happens, which is quite probable, in subsequent melee pikemen still have 50% to hit/die while the legionaries drop to 33%
Add to this that if a group of 4 loose a base it's -1 to tests
Add to this that if they loose a second base they are destroyed...
This can be very quick... But I agree with you I have seen all sorts of things happening with dices...

Add to this that if they loose a second base they are destroyed

Well I only once face a roman with average legionnaries . usually it is superior and of course armoured . I still have to find during a tournament a roman with protected units

deadtorius wrote:not what us future Selucids wanted to hear.....
I was hoping the pikes would get an advantage over the Romans and prove a more formidable foe than the ancient Spanish have proven to be so far.

Fear not Seleucid brethren. Trust in the force and use TCs at all times.

Steve P