Slitherine

Posted: **Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:06 am**

I'd like to know :
1) your opinion about an idea of mine about dragoons,
2) and whether or not it is moddable.

1) My idea :
Dragoons were mounted infantry. They were chosen among infantrymen and were trained to ride a horse. Their horses weren't the best ones. Most of the time, when they wanted to fight/fire, they dismount.

Right now, during one turn, in-game dragoons can either :

shoot

or move long distances then shoot.

My idea is creating two separate behaviors for dragoons :

when on horseback, they can move long distances but then they can't shoot

when on foot, they can only move short distances and they can also shoot

2) Implementation :

When dragoons use a number of APs below or equal to 10 (that's the max APs of Medium Foot, such as Musketeers), they can fire. They are considered as if on foot. After firing, they can't move anymore (nor firing again, of course). Firing is like using all their remaining APs. They have to wait for the next turn to move or fire again.

When dragoons use a number of APs between 11 and 16 (their current max APs), they can't fire. They have to wait for the next turn to fire. They are considered as if on horseback. In this case, opportunity shooting during the following residual shooting phase would translate the fact that, even on horseback, some dragoons could still fire.

When dragoons fire first, they can't move after that, as it is currently implemented in game. It is as if they use all their APs at once by shooting.

All the other rules about dragoons remain the same, especially evasion and disorder due to terrain :
- They still have to deal with their horses and thus are moderately disordered in forest...
- They stil can jump on their horses and flee

3) Is it a good idea ? Is it moddable ?

Posted: **Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:16 pm**

Not a bad idea, not sure if it’s possible. Perhaps reducing dragoon’s move points to 12 would be sufficient for what you are trying to achieve.

Posted: **Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:59 pm**

TheGrayMouser wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:16 pm Perhaps reducing dragoon’s move points to 12 would be sufficient for what you are trying to achieve.

12 is Light Foot's move points. And such Detached Musketeers remain steady in the woods, unlike the dragoons.

IMHO (if possible) two opposite/distinct behaviours would be nice : short distance + shooting (foot), long distance + no shooting (on horse).

Posted: **Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:06 pm**

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:59 pm
TheGrayMouser wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:16 pm Perhaps reducing dragoon’s move points to 12 would be sufficient for what you are trying to achieve.
12 is Light Foot's move points. And such Detached Musketeers remain steady in the woods, unlike the dragoons.

Well yes, they would have the same move rate as light foot and also fully armoured gendarmes. But as you say, they were mounted on nags and it would take some time to dismount and have horse holders grab the reigns... reducing the move would prevent their use as hunter killers especially when teamed up with true light horse. Which doesn’t seem historical.

Posted: **Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:41 pm**

TheGrayMouser wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:06 pm But as you say, they were mounted on nags and it would take some time to dismount and have horse holders grab the reigns...

IMHO It has already been taken into account as currently :

Light foot : APs = 12 (= 3 squares in a straight line)

Dragoons : APs = 16 (= 4 squares in a straight line)

Light horse (hussars) : APs = 20 (= 5 squares in a straight line)

'Nags' is maybe too strong a word ? But I have no historical knowledge on that very interesting matter.

Posted: **Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:33 pm**

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:06 am I'd like to know :
1) your opinion about an idea of mine about dragoons,
2) and whether or not it is moddable.

1) not a bad idea;
2) moddable:

https://yadi.sk/d/ow_zFzUuYgwirg unzip the archive and paste in your module. If there are files with the same names in it, you should take the necessary strings from them. Probably, it should be tested more.

Posted: **Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:56 am**

Cronos09 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:33 pm
Athos1660 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:06 am I'd like to know :
1) your opinion about an idea of mine about dragoons,
2) and whether or not it is moddable.
1) not a bad idea;
2) moddable:

https://yadi.sk/d/ow_zFzUuYgwirg unzip the archive and paste in your module. If there are files with the same names in it, you should take the necessary strings from them. Probably, it should be tested more.

Thank you so much, Cronos09! I did not expect such a nice surprise

I'll test it right now. Testing is the best way to know the interest of an idea.

_____________________

btw about escaping :

1) now that dragoons can be either on foot or on horseback, one could imagine that when attacked and on foot, dragoons would have a lower probability of escaping than when they are already on horseback. They waste their time joining their fellow horse-holders and mounting. Moreover, the later may have been attacked meanwhile by enemies, some horses may have fled, etc. But I guess that probability of escaping is handled by the game engine, not by modding ? And it could be hard to fine tune. If light foot currently had lower probability to flee than dragoons (of that i don't know), one could imagine that dragoons would have that probability when on foot and their currently in-game (higher?) probability when on horseback.

2) Maybe another way to achieve escaping is to tweak APs :
- when attacked on foot, dragoons behave like light foot. Their max APs is 12 for the duration of the escape, then 16 again ?
- when attacked on horse, dragoons behave as they currently do. Their max APs remain 16 ?

3) Maybe there's another way to achieve that ? Maybe it is a useless feature ?

As a reminder, from the manual about evasion (9.4.4, p. 30) :
"Light troops (light foot, commanded shot, light horse and dragoons) may evade charges. The AI decides for the (player or AI) unit whether it will evade, based on its chance of winning the combat and its chance of successfully getting away. The charging unit pursues with its remaining APs, so that it is more likely to catch the evaders if it starts its charge in an adjacent map square. (...)"

Posted: **Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:21 am**

Cronos09 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:33 pm Probably, it should be tested more.

If I am not mistaken, when Fragmented, an unit have its APs halved at the beginning of a turn :

Light foot (12 APs) gets only 6 APs

Dragoon (16 APs) gets only 8 APs

Let's imagine a Fragmented Light foot and a fragmented modded Dragoon at the beginning of a turn :

1) The Fragmented light foot can either :

shoot

move straight forward once and shoot

move diagonally once and shoot

2) The Fragmented modded Dragoon can only either :

shoot

or move. Whatever his move, its remaining APs will be below 6, thus according to the rules of your mod, he won't be able to shoot during this turn.

3) Fragmented vanilla Dragoons can use their APs and shoot like the light foot.

That's quite unfair to the modded dragoons, isn't it ? But I guess this is hard to mod!

Or maybe :

you coded long distance that way : if remaining APs < 6, then it is 'long distance' and dragoons can't shoot

while maybe you can code that way : if APs used > 10, then it is 'long distance' and dragoons can't shoot. That way, if fragmented dragoons use only their 8 remaining APs, they can still shoot. But I don't know whether or not it is moddable that way ?

or maybe coding "when Fragmented, modded dragoons can always shoot" ?

Note : It seems that there isn't the same issue when dragoons and Light foot are DISRUPTED. Disruption seems not to affect APs : Dragoons keep their 16 APs and Light foot their 12 APS. The manual confirms it (p. 41) :
"DISRUPTION and FRAGMENTATION reduce a unit’s fighting capability. FRAGMENTATION also reduces its AP. FRAGMENTED units cannot charge."

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:56 am 2) Maybe another way to achieve escaping is to tweak APs :
- when attacked on foot, dragoons behave like light foot. Their max APs is 12 for the duration of the escape, then 16 again ?
- when attacked on horse, dragoons behave as they currently do. Their max APs remain 16 ?

Playing with the map Editor, I’ve just noticed that when evading :

Dragoons seem to be able to move backward up to 5 squares (APs = 20)

and Light foot up to 4 squares (APs = 16).

Can someone confirm that ?

If so, tweaking APs would be :
- when attacked on foot, dragoons behave like light foot. Their max APs is 16 for the duration of the escape, then 16 again when they stop fleeing
- when attacked on horse, dragoons behave as they currently do, that is with max APs = 20 for the duration of the escape, then 16 when they stop fleeing

________________

@Cronos09, your mod seems to work fine. Great work!

I keep on testing it.

(edited) Adding some clarification.

Posted: **Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:32 pm**

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:56 am Thank you so much, Cronos09! I did not expect such a nice surprise

Not at all. It was interesting to me to solve this issue.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:21 am That's quite unfair to dragoons, isn't it ? But I guess this is hard to mod!

I agree. I think it is not hard to improve. I can add a condition of the left AP for Fragmented Dragoons. How many AP do you wish to leave for them - 2 or 3?

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:56 am btw about escaping :

I see another rabbit in your sleeve

2nd item does not suitable. For this you should add a new option to the game (like Mount/Dismount in Fog2).
About 1st - I only say you can see FUNCTION DoEvadeAndPursuit(me, enemy, adjacent_X, adjacent_Y) in Assault.BSF (...\Data\Battle\Scripts\). As I understand the evading conditions for all light troops are equal.

Posted: **Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:07 pm**

Cronos09 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:32 pm
Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:21 am That's quite unfair to dragoons, isn't it ? But I guess this is hard to mod!
I agree. I think it is not hard to improve. I can add a condition of the left AP for Fragmented Dragoons. How many AP do you wish to leave for them - 2 or 3?

You mean that if the modded dragoons have remaining APs left after moving, they'll be able to shoot, right ?

If so (correct me if I am wrong) :

1) With their APs=8, Fragmented Vanilla Dragoon can move :

2 squares straight ahead (2x 4 APs)

or only 1 square diagonally (1x 6 APs). There are 2 APs left.

2) With two added APs, that is 10 APs in total (their max APs +2), fragmented modded Dragoon could move :

2 squares straight ahead (2x 4 APs) like the Vanilla ones. There would be 2 remaining APs left.

or 1 square diagonally (1x 6 APs) and 1 square straight ahead (1x 4 APs). 0 points left. In that case, modded dragoons get an advantage over Vanilla ones, right ?

3) So APs = 9 would be perfect :

2 squares straight ahead (2x 4 APs). There would be 1 AP left, unusable for moving.

or 1 square diagonally (1x 6 APs). 3 points left, unusable for moving.

So 1 additional point would be perfect, right ? Would it be possible ?

Cronos09 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:32 pm
Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 8:56 am btw about escaping :
I see another rabbit in your sleeve
2nd item does not suitable. For this you should add a new option to the game (like Mount/Dismount in Fog2).
About 1st - I only say you can see FUNCTION DoEvadeAndPursuit(me, enemy, adjacent_X, adjacent_Y) in Assault.BSF (...\Data\Battle\Scripts\). As I understand the evading conditions for all light troops are equal.

By "evading conditions for all light troops are equal", you mean that it seems to you that Vanilla Light foot and Vanilla dragoons have the same probability to escape and the same number of APs to do it, don't they ?

If so, modding Dragoons' evasion is useless.

(edited) correction to numbers of APs used

Posted: **Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:45 pm**

Cronos09 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:32 pm 2nd item does not suitable. For this you should add a new option to the game (like Mount/Dismount in Fog2).

btw my first idea about modding Dragoons was to use and adapt the P&S limber/unlimber arty feature to mount/dismount Dragoons :

The Arty is limbered, it can move but can't shoot -> Dragoons are mounted, they can move long distances (like Vanilla Dragoons) but can't shoot (or only very inefficiently?)

The Arty is unlimbered, it can't move but can shoot -> Dragoons are dismounted, they can move only shorter distances (they act like Light Foot) but they can shoot

Then I thought that tweaking APs would be easier. If I ain't mistaken, the main difference between the AP version and the unlimber/limber version is the additional turn you have to wait for between :

limbering and moving

unlimbering and firing

This version accentuate the wasted time when dragoons dismount and run to their fire position and when they run back and mount. Maybe it is too static for Dragoons ? Maybe not ?

I don't know which version would be the best one...
And whether or not the Arty version would be moddable...

Posted: **Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:31 pm**

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:45 pm btw my first idea about modding Dragoons was to use and adapt the P&S limber/unlimber arty feature to mount/dismount Dragoons :

I have no idea how to adapt the P&S limber/unlimber arty feature to mount/dismount Dragoons.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:07 pm You mean that if the modded dragoons have remaining APs left after moving, they'll be able to shoot, right ?

Yes, but what you mean by that I do not understand:

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:07 pm If so (correct me if I am wrong) :

1) With their APs=8, Fragmented Vanilla Dragoon can move :
2 squares straight ahead (2x 4 APs)

or only 1 square diagonally (1x 6 APs). There are 2 APs left.
2) With two added APs, that is 10 APs in total (their max APs +2), fragmented modded Dragoon could move :
2 squares straight ahead (2x 4 APs) like the Vanilla ones. There would be 2 remaining APs left.

or 1 square diagonally (1x 6 APs) and 1 square straight ahead (1x 4 APs). 0 points left. In that case, modded dragoons get an advantage over Vanilla ones, right ?
3) So APs = 9 would be perfect :
2 squares straight ahead (2x 4 APs). There would be 1 AP left, unusable for moving.

or 1 square diagonally (1x 6 APs). 3 points left, unusable for moving.

We subtract 6 from 16 AP for Steady/Disrupted Dragoon. Why do you want to add AP to 8 for Fragmented Dragoon? I think that you should subtract 2 or 3 from 8 AP.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:07 pm By "evading conditions for all light troops are equal", you mean that it seems to you that Vanilla Light foot and Vanilla dragoons have the same probability to escape and the same number of APs to do it, don't they ?

Do you see the word "Dragoon" in the FUNCTION DoEvadeAndPursuit(me, enemy, adjacent_X, adjacent_Y)? I don't see. And the number of AP is taken into account that which the unit has.

Posted: **Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:09 pm**

Cronos09 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 6:31 pm We subtract 6 from 16 AP for Steady/Disrupted Dragoon. Why do you want to add AP to 8 for Fragmented Dragoon? I think that you should subtract 2 or 3 from 8 AP.

Sorry but neither do I understand what you mean

So I will try to rephrase what I meant. Simply that :

If I am not mistaken, fragmented Vanilla Dragoons have 8 APs which allow them either to go straight ahead 2 squares or only 1 square diagonally. In both cases, they can shoot.

Fragmented modded Dragoons should have the same possibilities, no more no less.

Posted: **Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:00 am**

Cronos09 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:33 pm
Athos1660 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:06 am I'd like to know :
1) your opinion about an idea of mine about dragoons,
2) and whether or not it is moddable.
1) not a bad idea;
2) moddable:

https://yadi.sk/d/ow_zFzUuYgwirg unzip the archive and paste in your module. If there are files with the same names in it, you should take the necessary strings from them. Probably, it should be tested more.

What I like about this mod and idea is :
- the two distinct behaviors : long distance/no shooting, short distance/shooting
- Dragoons still behaving like light troop, ie. able to evade
- Dragoons less mobile than light foot when on foot, which translate the fact they have to deal with their horses ans horse-holders.
- The fact that dismounting wasting time is here : if you spend too many APs, you have to wait the next turn to shoot.

What is a bit difficult (at least for me) is the fact the player has always to think in terms of APs when playing with those dragoons : "Well, I can't spend more than 10 APs if I want to shoot, 10 APs means 2 squares straight ahead or..." Sometimes I unmindfully spend all the 16 APs to get near a target (as if I were with Vanilla Dragoons) and... oops I can't shoot, but he will shoot me during his next turn!'

Two movement zones overlay each others (in pink : movements possible if 'on foot' ; the large zone : movements available if 'on horse') but only one is visible in game :

Posted: **Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:19 pm**

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:09 pm
Fragmented modded Dragoons should have the same possibilities, no more no less.

In Move.BSF file of the mod copy this block:

Code: Select all

	if ((IsUnitSquadType(me, "Dragoons") == 1) && (GetAttrib(me, "MoraleState") < 2))
		{
			if (GetAttrib(me, "AP") < 6)
				{
				SetAttrib (me, "movedfar", 1) ;		
				}
		}

instead of

Code: Select all

	if ((IsUnitSquadType(me, "Dragoons") == 1) && (GetAttrib(me, "AP") < 6))
		{
			SetAttrib (me, "movedfar", 1) ;		
		}

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:00 am What is a bit difficult (at least for me) is the fact the player has always to think in terms of APs when playing with those dragoons : "Well, I can't spend more than 10 APs if I want to shoot, 10 APs means 2 squares straight ahead or..." Sometimes I unmindfully spend all the 16 APs to get near a target (as if I were with Vanilla Dragoons) and... oops I can't shoot, but he will shoot me during his next turn!'

The movement zone is calculated based on full AP number - 16 for Dragoons. There is no other way at the moment or a special script is needed.

Posted: **Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:53 pm**

Cronos09 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:19 pm
Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:00 am What is a bit difficult (at least for me) is the fact the player has always to think in terms of APs when playing with those dragoons : "Well, I can't spend more than 10 APs if I want to shoot, 10 APs means 2 squares straight ahead or..." Sometimes I unmindfully spend all the 16 APs to get near a target (as if I were with Vanilla Dragoons) and... oops I can't shoot, but he will shoot me during his next turn!'
The movement zone is calculated based on full AP number - 16 for Dragoons. There is no other way at the moment or a special script is needed.

I'm not surprised

Cronos09 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:19 pm
Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:09 pm
Fragmented modded Dragoons should have the same possibilities, no more no less.

In Move.BSF file of the mod copy this block:
Code: Select all
	if ((IsUnitSquadType(me, "Dragoons") == 1) && (GetAttrib(me, "MoraleState") < 2))
		{
			if (GetAttrib(me, "AP") < 6)
				{
				SetAttrib (me, "movedfar", 1) ;		
				}
		}
instead of
Code: Select all
	if ((IsUnitSquadType(me, "Dragoons") == 1) && (GetAttrib(me, "AP") < 6))
		{
			SetAttrib (me, "movedfar", 1) ;		
		}

Tested. It works very well (of course).

Thank you very much for this nice mod!

Posted: **Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:05 pm**

Has nobody tested this mod and wish to share his thoughts about it and dragoons in general ?

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:17 am**

Using the principle of converting units from FoG2 on the P&S basis, we can create the following concept of modding dragoons:

Next turn:

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:49 am**

Cronos09 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:17 am (...)

Very nice ! Great job !!!!!! As usual.

So far, I've only been able to dismount my dismountable FoG2 cavalry during the deployment phase (unless I did something wrong). Nice that one can use the same mechanism to mount/dismount dragoons also during the battle !

If I understand your pics correctly :
- during turn 1, you can move as a horse, dismount and move as foot,
- during turn 2, you can move as foot, mount and move as a horse,
right ?

How APs work ? say in turn 1, I use 9 APs as a horse out of my 16. It remains 7 APs as a horse. I dismount. I am a foot. Can I use those 7 remaining APs (up to 10) ? Or do I have only 10 (APs as a foot) - 9 (already used) = 1 AP (left) ?

A couple of thoughts if you were to keep on working on this project. Maybe I for one would :

add a % of musket to the mounted dragoons (say 15%, 25% or 50 %) to mimic the ability for a small part of the mounted dragoons to shoot (especially opportunity fire).

make the mount dragoons light cavalry (not Horse) with 16 APs, using for example the Mounted Arquebusier 3d model used by the French 1623-1634 (among others) with say 25% Musket instead of 100% carabine, only 16 APs and no armour.

use, for the dismount dragoons, the current dragoon 3D model but with only 10 APs to make them have a Light foot behavior, ie to be able to evade and not be a priority target for enemy AI non-light cavalry, while having trouble in woods (to mimic a bit the difficulty to manage the horses). iirc I once made a kind of Detached musketeers out of 150-250 Medium foot and during the test, all the AI enemy cavalry ran towards it and killed it, thinking they were important btw the current 3d model of Dragoons shows dismount ones.

Hoping I did not write too many nonsense above. I haven't think of the Dragoons lately. It is 16APs when mounted and 10 when dismounted, right ?

However, congrats !!!! It could be a perfect way of modding Dragoons !

Posted: **Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:45 am**

Thank you, Athos!

In FoG2 you can really dismount/mount knight cavalry during the deployment phase.
I added the condition for it: you can only mount/dismount your dragoon unit once at the beginning of the turn and then it can be moved based on its AP. There is no AP partition. You can see available AP after mount/dismount on the screens. These are approximate capabilities of dragoons.

Slitherine

Modding dragoons ?

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