Slitherine

Obviously this is not the time for a wishlist for P&S 1 (or a potential sequel). (And anyway P&S is great as is.)
So I decided to write to Santa Claus...

In fact, I was reading the FoG Renaissance book for the tabletop game (a real nice one!) and came across some really nice features for P&S. So I just wanted to share them with you :

• Sacking enemy camps

• New skirmish mode : land battles near a coast with unmovable ships. That is ships being available as arty units during the phase of Force selection

• Portable defenses

• Capturable artillery

• Grenades...

• Nice unit names depending on nations, such as Forlorn Hope Carabins, Vieux Infantry, Chevaux-légers, Vieux and Petits-Vieux infantry, Enfants perdus, Marines, German mercenary Kürassiere, Ungarn, Finnish hakkapeliita and many others...

• Real nice miniatures (with various great poses) and landscapes

Oh ! btw a little question about troop quality in P&S :
If I ain't mistaken, in P&S, Hussars, Dragoons, detached musketeers and Commanded Shot seem to have only one troop quality : average (apart from special units such as Winged Hussars). And the same can be said about most Enfants perdus, forlhorn hope, dragoons, hussars... of the FoG Renaissance tabletop series.

Why ?

Back in those days, I guess their experience was very varied (thus... average, or below ?).
But I imagine such units with an high élan, as they were chosen for dangerous and hazardous tasks (at the frontline).

That’s my romantic spirit…

However, it may be a matter not of Elan, but of another variable. It makes me think of what you made about the French tactical doctrine of the infantry during the 17th century, limiting them to Musket capability but giving them Impact Foot capability in addition, ie limiting a variable while increasing another.

Cheers!

While my guess is that the focus will be on finishing expanding FoGII. I'd definitely love to see a P&S 2 at some point as well.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:02 am
In fact, I was reading the FoG Renaissance book for the tabletop game (a real nice one!) and came across some really nice features for P&S. So I just wanted to share them with you :

• Sacking enemy camps

• New skirmish mode : land battles near a coast with unmovable ships. That is ships being available as arty units during the phase of Force selection

• Portable defenses

• Capturable artillery

• Grenades...

• Nice unit names depending on nations, such as Forlorn Hope Carabins, Vieux Infantry, Chevaux-légers, Vieux and Petits-Vieux infantry, Enfants perdus, Marines, German mercenary Kürassiere, Ungarn, Finnish hakkapeliita and many others...

• Real nice miniatures (with various great poses) and landscapes

I love lists like this! I like all your ideas. Anything that brings more immersion to the battles is alright in my book. I'd add:

• Casualties. One of my favorite parts of the battle is reviewing that field afterwards to survey the carnage and see where the most fighting took place.

• Detailed after action statistics: Kills caused, losses taken, routs, routs caused, etc.

• Ability to name units and leader of said unit even if it isn't a General or Sub General (but we also need Generals added). When it comes to wargames I am about the story telling and being able to name units makes the fighting more intimate and creates an emotional attachment to the outcomes of melees and battles. I can't stress this enough. So ideally it would be leader's name, unit's name, unit type,: Captain Reynolds, Reynolds' Raiders, Dragoons.
  
  Some players are only concerned with how to win, figuring out the best combination of this and that to overcome the competition and score points on leader boards (to each their own). That doesn't interest me. It's the drama and struggle within the historical context that attracts me most to wargaming and the stories that unfold within that context. Whatever brings me closer to that immersion is a good thing.

• Explosions. When the cannons impact lets see it. (I have been wondering if that could be modded in now?)

• Higher unit count (than we see in FoG II) 128 models for Pike blocks, So on and so forth.

• Replay feature for AARs. Ideally a rewind/fast forward feature allowing us to review a turn over and over after it's happened.

• A better campaign system (than we have in P&S or FoG II). There's gotta be something better without getting too complicated. Maybe branching battles? Lose this go here/win that go there?

That's it for now.


Merry Christmas.

Mord.

Good Ideas - I would like a multiplayer Campaign system that interlink the battles. Even if the current map campaign system was multiplayer would be enough for me.

Ability to export and import models to enable easier modding for total conversions.

Pixel wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:31 pm While my guess is that the focus will be on finishing expanding FoGII. I'd definitely love to see a P&S 2 at some point as well.

Indeed, the developers announced several times that their priority was to cover from 2500 BC to 1500 AD. If I am not mistaken, we are now at 681 BC to 1040 AD. So there is plenty of time before an hypothetical P&S 2 (or would it be 'FoG : something' ?). Fortunately I have P&S 1 to wait patiently and have fun

Mord wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:17 am Explosions. When the cannons impact lets see it. (I have been wondering if that could be modded in now?)

I take your point, but cannonballs don't explode (they bounce/skip), so if anything it would be a puff of dust when they impact the ground - which might actually not be inside the unit they have hit, as they might go through it anywhere up to 6ft from the ground and still cause causalties. (Higher for a cavalry target).

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:35 am

Mord wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:17 am Explosions. When the cannons impact lets see it. (I have been wondering if that could be modded in now?)

I take your point, but cannonballs don't explode (they bounce/skip), so if anything it would be a puff of dust when they impact the ground - which might actually not be inside the unit they have hit, as they might go through it anywhere up to 6ft from the ground and still cause causalties. (Higher for a cavalry target).

Yeah, that's fine (I was using it loosely). I actually created a sound fx file for FoG 1 that simulated the sound of the cannon ball whizzing and skipping through people. But rockets, in say SJ would have an explosion. An animation of the cannon balls flying and bouncing would even do the trick (arrows and other projectiles too), just to give us a sense of things happening besides a boom and then the numbers of wounded. FoG II has made this much more visually exciting with the arrows, artillery and javelin animations, it really triggers the imagination when seeing it.

Mord.

I was asked in PM if I had really wrote 'grenades' in OP and really wished to equip anybody in 17th century with them.

First of all, as I mentioned it, 'grenade throwers' is an idea I took from the FoG Renaissance tabletop book. So I guess it is implement-able in P&S.

It seems that the first European companies of specialized soldiers (grenadiers) appear during the 17th century.
For example, the first French company of Grenadiers was created in 1667 by Louis XIV.
Here is an engraving made in 1696.


Grenade (invented long before) is not my favorite idea among those mentioned in OP. But I guess it would add some diversity.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:52 pm I was asked in PM if I had really wrote 'grenades' in OP and really wished to equip anybody in 17th century with them.

First of all, as I mentioned it, 'grenade throwers' is an idea I took from the FoG Renaissance tabletop book. So I guess it is implement-able in P&S.

It seems that the first European companies of specialized soldiers (grenadiers) appear during the 17th century.
For example, the first French company of Grenadiers was created in 1667 by Louis XIV.
Here is an engraving made in 1696.


Grenade (invented long before) is not my favorite idea among those mentioned in OP. But I guess it would add some diversity.

There is already a fully coded "Bombs" capability - i.e. Grenades - in Pike and Shot. Grenade units would just need to be added in a modded Squads file. The column for Bombs capability is already there.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:52 pm I was asked in PM if I had really wrote 'grenades' in OP and really wished to equip anybody in 17th century with them.

First of all, as I mentioned it, 'grenade throwers' is an idea I took from the FoG Renaissance tabletop book. So I guess it is implement-able in P&S.

It seems that the first European companies of specialized soldiers (grenadiers) appear during the 17th century.
For example, the first French company of Grenadiers was created in 1667 by Louis XIV.
Here is an engraving made in 1696.


Grenade (invented long before) is not my favorite idea among those mentioned in OP. But I guess it would add some diversity.

Grenades (Bombs) are already in Pike and Shot. There is a unit called Grenadiers, unit number 140 in the Squads.csv file, but as far as I know it is not used in any official army list or scenario.

There are Grenadiers with bombs in some user created scenarios though, including some of my Great Northern War scenarios.

Edit: Looks like RBS beat me to the draw!

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:19 pm There is already a fully coded "Bombs" capability - i.e. Grenades - in Pike and Shot. Grenade units would just need to be added in a modded Squads file. The column for Bombs capability is already there.

Thank you very much for this information

Paul59 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:23 pm
Grenades (Bombs) are already in Pike and Shot. There is a unit called Grenadiers, unit number 140 in the Squads.csv file, but as far as I know it is not used in any official army list or scenario.

There are Grenadiers with bombs in some user created scenarios though, including some of my Great Northern War scenarios.

Edit: Looks like RBS beat me to the draw!

Thank you, Paul.

Indeed, there are 'Blue Grenadiers' : light foot, morale=100, Musket/Carbine/etc.=0%, bomb=100%, totalMen = 150.

Interesting! I like the small total number of men. Maybe adding some % ok musket or Carbine ? But would it be useful/possible/meaningful ?

NB : is there a 3d model of them or is it like the elephants ?
________


I must also thank Cronos09 who PMed me the information about Grenades being moddable.

Thank you all three of you!

However, as I don't know what to mod (which units to create) and how to mod it, I'll keep on playing the excellent Vanilla game and some other well-made mods and scenarii without grenades, that is fine. I focus on the TYW right now

_____________

NB 1 : Cronos09 made an interesting limited Ammo mod and added in it the possibility to limit on the bomb throws for a few turns.

According to this book, during the reign of Louis XIV, a grenadier carried 10-15 grenades. Thus a small company of 100 men would have at its disposal 1000-1500 grenades during a fight!

NB 2 : I guess there are several options for grenades, like :

1) 1660-1669 : a few grenadiers in each infantry company ?
- Pike and Shot : 79% musket ; 1% bomb ; 20% pike ?
- French Pike and Shot : 65% musket ; 1% bomb ; 100% impact Foot ; 34% pike ?

2) 1670-1698 : small units of say 100-150 grenadiers fighting also with their 'fusil' (flintlock musket in english) at short/'long' range and sword in melee (+ plug bayonet?). An elite troop, rare and expensive with high experience and elan ?

a) A kind of 'Detached musketeers'
- Name : 'Grenadiers'
- Elan : 200
- Experience : 200
- total number of men : 100
- Shooting : 80% musket or carbine + 20% bomb ?
- Melee : 50% Bayonet + 50% Swordsmen ?

b) A kind of 'Hussars Cav late' (or are they mounted infantry like the dragoons ?)
- Name : 'Horse Grenadiers' (like the Louis XIV's 'Grenadiers à cheval')
- Elan : 200
- Experience : 200
- total number of men : 100
- Shooting : 80% carbine + 20% bomb ?
- Melee : 100% Pistol melee or Swordsmen (if treated as hussars) ? Bayonet 50% + Swordsmen 50% (if treated as dragoons) ?

Any comment about these units would be welcome
______________

Source :

"After shooting, if oppressed by the enemy, the Grenadier will throw his 'fusil' and drawn forth his sword out of its sheath"' (here)

"The ordinary order of battle of the grenadiers : at the wings of the army" (here)

'The grenadiers were equipped with a 'fusil à baïonnette' not a musket"(here)

What do bombs "do"?

StuccoFresco wrote: ↑Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:54 am What do bombs "do"?

From the manual :
- Shooting range = 1
- Cohesion test : any troops shot at by bombs (-1)
- Combat capability (shooting) : Foot equipped with naptha bombs or grenades.

Nice! Triggering a cohesion test with a malus is really useful.

P&S 2 would be also top of my list

zakblood wrote: ↑Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:56 am P&S 2 would be also top of my list

Happy to see that quite a few gamers agree on that!
Maybe 'Santa Claus' will hear us and we'll have it some day

Good list. The removal or extension of the 64 - unit limit is my greatest wish, closely followed by the graphical representation of casualties and formation movements.

I'm still playing the heck out of the game, especially the mods extending the timeframe into the 1800s. Would love to be able to capture the larger encounters with up to 120 units per side.

majgentob wrote: ↑Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:59 am (...) is my greatest wish, closely followed by the graphical representation of casualties and formation movements.

I guess that, if there were to be a P&S2 someday, it might look like FoGII with its miniatures and animations showing their charge/melee/move/shooting/death.

However, I am sure that they could also achieve a nice result keeping the same kind of 3D models as currently in P&S1 and just 'refreshing' them. These models could even be nicely 'animated', one way or another, like in this extract of a period engraving showing a melee during the siege and battle of Dunkirk (1646) :

I actually personally prefer the medium battles, with 20-30 units per side, but variety is rarely a bad thing.

Actually, by 'formation movements,' I was talking about the simultaneous movements of the units in an AI group, a la FOG 2. I should have said 'group movements.' These greatly facilitate bigger engagements.

Animations of individual soldiers are cool, but I would choose smoother bigger battles over more detailed rendering of single soldiers, as much as I enjoy the look of FOG2.