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Poll on decisions

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:25 am
by Pocus
Dear players,
Here is the list of decisions that are not nation-specific.

Please indicate which ones you find the less useful.
If you have suggestions for improvements.
If you have ideas for nice additions.

THANKS! :D

Land Tax law
Merchants and Patricians (x3)
Slave Markets / Exchanges
Emergency levy
Gather Mercenaries
Gather food from the land
Develop Infrastructures
Gods of Old: Religious Ceremony
Sanctification decree
Dura Lex Sed Lex: Justice in Ancient Time
Impose common language and practices
Elites conversion
Corn Law and health regulations
Slaves status and freedmen laws
Citizenship status and state reforms
Exploration Expedition x12
Military Reform x6
Seize commerce light ships
Buildings development focus
Support Science and Culture
Improve Trade Efficiency
Change our Civilization society (qualifier)

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:53 am
by Swuul
The least useful (ie which I have never used except one time each in a test game as I wanted to see what they do) for me have been:

Merchants and Patricians (x3)
Gather food from the land

Those are not useful at all in my opinion.

I have never used, and find it hard to think of any situation where I would use "Seize commerce light ships" or "Buildings development focus", but I suppose there could be some obscure situation when those could be used. They have a way too underwhelming effect IMO.




The ones I always keep looking for are "Slave Markets / Exchanges" and "Corn Law and health regulations". Both are extremely important. Without the ability to shuffle slaves every few years things go drain real fast, and to have +5% Health buff (and the chance to generate extra population) from health regulations is very good.

All the other decissions are IMO situational. Ie I have used them quite often, but there have been times I have chosen not to enact them

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:49 pm
by Lysimachos
Sorry to disagree but the "Merchants and Patricians" decision is one of the most useful in the entire game, expecially for all the nations that got penalties in manpower.
On the other hand "Land Tax Law" and "Gather food from the land" seem pretty useless.

But, to say the truth, the real problem in a game that last 500 turns is that 22 decisions are clearly too few to spice the action ... :cry:

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:39 pm
by Morbio
Lysimachos wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 2:49 pm Sorry to disagree but the "Merchants and Patricians" decision is one of the most useful in the entire game, expecially for all the nations that got penalties in manpower.
On the other hand "Land Tax Law" and "Gather food from the land" seem pretty useless.

But, to say the truth, the real problem in a game that last 500 turns is that 22 decisions are clearly too few to spice the action ... :cry:
I agree, Merchants and Patricians is the one I use the most... definitely useful!

I've listed the decisions below with my comments...

Land Tax law - do not use
Merchants and Patricians (x3) - always review and will use where needed.
Slave Markets / Exchanges - often
Emergency levy - sometime
Gather Mercenaries - sometimes
Gather food from the land - never
Develop Infrastructures - rarely use
Gods of Old: Religious Ceremony - sometime
Sanctification decree - often
Dura Lex Sed Lex: Justice in Ancient Time -sometimes
Impose common language and practices - never
Elites conversion - never
Corn Law and health regulations - rarely
Slaves status and freedmen laws - sometimes
Citizenship status and state reforms - sometimes
Exploration Expedition x12 - never
Military Reform x6 - sometimes
Seize commerce light ships - rarely
Buildings development focus - never
Support Science and Culture - never seen
Improve Trade Efficiency - rarely
Change our Civilization society (qualifier) - once, never noticed any benefit

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:05 am
by Geffalrus
The only ones I ever use are sell slaves for 1,000 gold, and the decisions that allow me to exchange gold/metal/manpower for manpower/metal/gold. I mostly only played Antigonids, and I relied on those to keep my gold/metal/manpower sufficiently stocked so that I could wage war on a new front as necessary and respond to enemy attacks quickly.

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:17 am
by jimwinsor
Land Tax law - I almost never use because once you get your economy going properly, money is plentiful. If there was an option to LOWER taxes I would probably choose it every time.

Merchants and Patricians (x3) - One of the reasons money is so plentiful. Metal -> Money and Men -> Money are the two most often clicked buttons in the game for me.

Slave Markets / Exchanges - Obviously vital to the game. It is Interesting how there is a differing opinion on the best one to choose, however. Loki and others I notice prefer to sell slaves; I OTOH hate to part with any pop, because pops = slots and slots = more cool structures I can build. So I take my chances with merely redistributing most of the time, and try to deal with the extra disloyalty by different means.

Emergency levy - Infamous before it got nerfed slightly, by not allowing negative Legacy anymore. It mostly benefits the AI, who will not be shy to pull the trigger on this whenever they can. I think this decision is in a good space now.

Gather Mercenaries - I'm not sure how cost effective this decision really is, but when I'm rich (which is often) I love to use it anyways, just to see what wacky troops end up making an appearance at my capital. I just wish there was some way to give all of them the mercenary trait, so money maintenance would be realistically higher.

Gather food from the land - Until recently I never used this. But finally, in my Armenia PBEM game, it came in handy! Mountainous Armenia starts the game practically starving, and has to devote significant pop to food production in very marginal regions just to stay out of negative food. This of course prevents a quick economic breakout. Then it dawned on me ... lets feed the "army!" I put 1 skirmisher infantry in each of my regions, then Decided to "feed the army." Voila! Vast food stockpiles everywhere, and no worries of it being eaten up by newborn babies. Finally I could devote ALL my Armenian peasants to Public Works and other vital Infrastructure projects, as well as Sheep shacks, Salt and Smoke Houses, so I would never starve again. So aside from this rare edge case (which I imagine desert nations might find handy as well) I never use it.

Develop Infrastructures - I almost always pay for this if I have the cash. And if not, I'll even take the loyalty hit provided no region goes below 50. Early Infra growth is the key to economic success, IMO.

Gods of Old: Religious Ceremony - I'll almost always take this for the extra 5 loyalty, although if a region in unrest has a religious structure I will jump at the chance to quell the unrest instead.

Sanctification decree - What does this do again? If I can't recall it I guess I don't use it that much.

Dura Lex Sed Lex: Justice in Ancient Time - Often a lifesaver, this is the easiest way to clear a region of unrest. Because it is so useful for this and comes up rather rarely, I will save this until I do have unrest. If none comes up before the expiration date, then I make another selection before it vanishes. Whatever!

Impose common language and practices - Another one I cannot recall offhand what it does.

Elites conversion - Can't recall this one either.

Corn Law and health regulations - This is an interesting one! The free infrastructure is obviously quite powerful. Although you do have to be careful early game to make sure you have a nearby source of Salt; if not a waft of new Salthouses can bankrupt your fledgling nation. The 5% health bonus is a nice safe pick too. But late game I will usually go for the Minor Corn Law, for that extra pop in my cap. Like I said, pops = slots!

Slaves status and freedmen laws - It would seem making your slaves happier if almost always the right choice, but you should probably check up on all your Slave Market regions first. That slaver loyalty hit last a long time. It is interesting the AI chooses to whip the slaves a lot; this often works to their advantage if they are losing a war, and the regions you conquer are now seething with much extra disloyalty. Which seems to be a crafty strategy for a player to emulate if they find themselves losing territories ... might as well poison the wells as you fall back.

Citizenship status and state reforms - Most valuable for the government age reduction option.

Exploration Expedition x12 - I'll do these if feasible, 150 Legacy is definitely worth it.

Military Reform x6 - I'll obviously do all of these if I can afford them.

Seize commerce light ships - Free ships! Except you have to pay their maintenance of course. And a small loyalty hit in the port. So, not exactly free. You could also pay compensation, but paying in loyalty seems a better deal most of the time. So this is a great pick if you find yourself needing an insta-navy.

Buildings development focus - I usually go for Culture here.

Support Science and Culture - Super rare late game Decision I'm always happy to get.

Improve Trade Efficiency - Expensive as hell but I want it! The picks that boost Trade Range are my faves. I'll stockpile money just to have it ready to use on this Decision when it shows up.

Change our Civilization society (qualifier) - Again, a nice Decision to get when it comes along in the late game.

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:43 am
by Swuul
jimwinsor wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:17 am Corn Law and health regulations <snip> The 5% health bonus is a nice safe pick too. But late game I will usually go for the Minor Corn Law, for that extra pop in my cap.
The Health regulations for 5% health bonus isn't "a safe pick", it is an extremely good population generator late game. If have a country of 40 regions (for example), then you will generate about two extra population every turn for the 20 turns it is in effect (and with any luck you will have the decission available again long before the 20 turns ends, so you can have it up perpetually). Together with the ability to shuffle slaves with "Slave Markets / Exchange" (IMO one should *always* use the decission to shuffle slaves after early game, unless absolutely gold-starved; the ability to shuffle slaves around is much more efficient for the economy than taking the gold after the early game) population grows and spreads extremely well around your empire.

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:17 am
by Pocus
Excellent feedback, and in particular Jim.

For others who already responded or intent to, can you justify your choices. It is much important for me to understand your thought process, I can then analyze in another light the decision effects and costs.

Also, subsidiary but important question. What are the decisions you feel are lacking? What are the sectors of the game where you feel you don't have a good enough toolbox?

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:30 am
by ess1
Excellent posts. Must remember them :oops:

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:43 pm
by Geffalrus
I'd be interested in something that interacted with leaders and generals. The bottleneck I always wound up in was quality and/or quantity of generals (and then quality of leaders). So something that could shake things up a bit and give the player options for altering their existing leader situation. Faction leaders I get are a fairly set thing, but having just a bit more ability to deal with a bad leader would be nice. Something that would re-roll the leader, but at a stability price of some sort. "We need to remove this horrible leader, but oh what about the chaos?!?!?!?!"

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:44 am
by loki100
Some notes:

Land Tax law - I have used this sometimes with very particular factions at the start when I need money. It works if you have a small population as the unrest malus isn't too much of an issue
Merchants and Patricians (x3) - almost always when they come up, clearly depends on where I have surpluses or shortages, but even so I'll convert to money just to release pop from commerce
Slave Markets / Exchanges - almost always for the transfer decision, since the 1.4 patch I've done much less selling but its still a means to gain some needed cash
Emergency levy - situational but quite often if playing a tribal faction, can save you or give you the means to win a local war
Gather Mercenaries - not often but it can be handy
Gather food from the land - never - but I note Jim's comments above so may review this
Develop Infrastructures - always, links back to keeping a cash pile, even late game the extra infrastructure can be very useful
Gods of Old: Religious Ceremony - always, the mid option is nice as while it doesn't clear a region from unrest the overall loyalty gain is valuable
Sanctification decree - often
Dura Lex Sed Lex: Justice in Ancient Time -always, can also be a means to get regions out of unrest
Impose common language and practices - never
Elites conversion - never
Corn Law and health regulations - health right at the start of the game, corn laws if I can afford the cash
Slaves status and freedmen laws - always, even with the slave market malus, on balance freeing is a good option
Citizenship status and state reforms - always, usually to reduce govt age
Exploration Expedition x12 - depends, I find the naval ones are worth taking as you can usually send a large warship almost anywhere, the bonus is then useful.
Military Reform x6 - always
Seize commerce light ships - situational, but can be a good way to boost your navy
Buildings development focus - sometimes, if I do its usually to bring up the Emporia
Support Science and Culture - yes
Improve Trade Efficiency - situational, it can make a trading nation pretty dominant
Change our Civilization society (qualifier) - situational, I've done it mid-game to shift focus say to trade and maybe late game for a different focus

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 10:36 pm
by debtmars
jimwinsor wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:17 am Land Tax law - I almost never use because once you get your economy going properly, money is plentiful. If there was an option to LOWER taxes I would probably choose it every time.

Merchants and Patricians (x3) - One of the reasons money is so plentiful. Metal -> Money and Men -> Money are the two most often clicked buttons in the game for me.

Slave Markets / Exchanges - Obviously vital to the game. It is Interesting how there is a differing opinion on the best one to choose, however. Loki and others I notice prefer to sell slaves; I OTOH hate to part with any pop, because pops = slots and slots = more cool structures I can build. So I take my chances with merely redistributing most of the time, and try to deal with the extra disloyalty by different means.

Emergency levy - Infamous before it got nerfed slightly, by not allowing negative Legacy anymore. It mostly benefits the AI, who will not be shy to pull the trigger on this whenever they can. I think this decision is in a good space now.

Gather Mercenaries - I'm not sure how cost effective this decision really is, but when I'm rich (which is often) I love to use it anyways, just to see what wacky troops end up making an appearance at my capital. I just wish there was some way to give all of them the mercenary trait, so money maintenance would be realistically higher.

Gather food from the land - Until recently I never used this. But finally, in my Armenia PBEM game, it came in handy! Mountainous Armenia starts the game practically starving, and has to devote significant pop to food production in very marginal regions just to stay out of negative food. This of course prevents a quick economic breakout. Then it dawned on me ... lets feed the "army!" I put 1 skirmisher infantry in each of my regions, then Decided to "feed the army." Voila! Vast food stockpiles everywhere, and no worries of it being eaten up by newborn babies. Finally I could devote ALL my Armenian peasants to Public Works and other vital Infrastructure projects, as well as Sheep shacks, Salt and Smoke Houses, so I would never starve again. So aside from this rare edge case (which I imagine desert nations might find handy as well) I never use it.

Develop Infrastructures - I almost always pay for this if I have the cash. And if not, I'll even take the loyalty hit provided no region goes below 50. Early Infra growth is the key to economic success, IMO.

Gods of Old: Religious Ceremony - I'll almost always take this for the extra 5 loyalty, although if a region in unrest has a religious structure I will jump at the chance to quell the unrest instead.

Sanctification decree - What does this do again? If I can't recall it I guess I don't use it that much.

Dura Lex Sed Lex: Justice in Ancient Time - Often a lifesaver, this is the easiest way to clear a region of unrest. Because it is so useful for this and comes up rather rarely, I will save this until I do have unrest. If none comes up before the expiration date, then I make another selection before it vanishes. Whatever!

Impose common language and practices - Another one I cannot recall offhand what it does.

Elites conversion - Can't recall this one either.

Corn Law and health regulations - This is an interesting one! The free infrastructure is obviously quite powerful. Although you do have to be careful early game to make sure you have a nearby source of Salt; if not a waft of new Salthouses can bankrupt your fledgling nation. The 5% health bonus is a nice safe pick too. But late game I will usually go for the Minor Corn Law, for that extra pop in my cap. Like I said, pops = slots!

Slaves status and freedmen laws - It would seem making your slaves happier if almost always the right choice, but you should probably check up on all your Slave Market regions first. That slaver loyalty hit last a long time. It is interesting the AI chooses to whip the slaves a lot; this often works to their advantage if they are losing a war, and the regions you conquer are now seething with much extra disloyalty. Which seems to be a crafty strategy for a player to emulate if they find themselves losing territories ... might as well poison the wells as you fall back.

Citizenship status and state reforms - Most valuable for the government age reduction option.

Exploration Expedition x12 - I'll do these if feasible, 150 Legacy is definitely worth it.

Military Reform x6 - I'll obviously do all of these if I can afford them.

Seize commerce light ships - Free ships! Except you have to pay their maintenance of course. And a small loyalty hit in the port. So, not exactly free. You could also pay compensation, but paying in loyalty seems a better deal most of the time. So this is a great pick if you find yourself needing an insta-navy.

Buildings development focus - I usually go for Culture here.

Support Science and Culture - Super rare late game Decision I'm always happy to get.

Improve Trade Efficiency - Expensive as hell but I want it! The picks that boost Trade Range are my faves. I'll stockpile money just to have it ready to use on this Decision when it shows up.

Change our Civilization society (qualifier) - Again, a nice Decision to get when it comes along in the late game.
Pretty much the same with the exception of:

Emergency Levy-I haven't seen it become available.

Develop Infrastructures-Haven't used it, but lacked cash when it was available, but would in right situation, most definitely.

Exploration Expedition x12-Completed Periplus to Deblinae (only one I have completed), received 100 Legacy-not 150; selected to receive bonus to Commerce of 10% for 20 turns and didn't receive any; after failure to receive 10% Commerce bonus, went back a couple of turns to receive 250 Culture and didn't receive that either...I think there is a bug.

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:14 am
by Swuul
Pocus wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:17 am Also, subsidiary but important question. What are the decisions you feel are lacking? What are the sectors of the game where you feel you don't have a good enough toolbox?
Diplomatic decisions. Examples

"Diplomatic banquet"
1) Come one, come all! - A general small plus to diplomatic relations with all neighbouring countries, for a hefty price in gold.
2) My friends, my brothers! - A plus to diplomatic relations with countries you co-operate, are allied with, or have a client relation.
3) Keep your friends closer and your enemies even closer! - A plus to diplomatic relations with all with whome you have a negative relations with.

"Pompous military show"
1) This Alliance is braindead! - Lose some reputation with your allies/clients, but give a chance to generate a couple free skirmishers and/or light warships for you and all your allies/clients.
2) Mine is bigger and better! - A general malus to reputation with all neighbours, but a chance to generate extra experience for your own troops.
3) Triumph, we are so much better than the others! - A general malus to all neighbours, a loyalty boost to all in your own capital

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:34 pm
by FrenchDude
As far as the already existing decisions are concerned, I feel the same as loki100.

One of the major decisions for me is « Merchants and Patricians », it’s so useful I almost always use it whenever I can.
Perhaps that it’s almost too powerful ? Adding a %chance of having something bad happening when using this decision could make me more hesitant to use it, sometimes I feel like I’m over using it, there’s no downside to it really. In my Roma game, i’ve been drowning in gold thanks to Merchants and Patricians ! I don’t know if the other players feel the same way, but in my opinion, adding a small risk would make it harder to overuse this decision.
For example : -10% chance of having a loyalty penalty for 10 turns for sending the poor to the mines
- 5% chance of having a region in military unrest for 5 turns because of your decision to reduce the bounty for enrollment

I also feel that Diplomacy is currently lacking as far as decisions are concerned, but with the Diplomacy update coming I don’t know how things will be, perhaps that you already planned on making new diplomatic decisions !

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:20 pm
by Lysimachos
Maybe it would be interesting to have random decisions, where on one hand you can get something really valuable but, on the other hand, also risking something different as an outcome ...

So why not:
"Kill your ruler": if you are able to make the plot succeed a new ruler will be crowned but, if you fail, the traits of the actual ruler will definitely worsen

"Appoint a lowborn general": if you are able to succeed a new general with good traits will be available, if you fail one of the existing ones will revolt and you'll loose him and 1/4 of his army

"Appoint a treasurer": 60% of probabilities of a 5% boost in your tax income for 20 turns / 40% probabilities of 2 adjacent regions with low loyalty revolting

"Appoint a diplomat": 65% of probabilities of a 5 pts. boost in your diplomatic relations with all the other nations / 35% of probabilities of a loss in your ruler authority (decrease in government skill)

"Covert Actions": 25% of probabilities of killing a foreign ruler / 50% of probabilities of no outcome / 25% of probabilities of loosing 15 pts. of diplomatic relations with all the other nations

And also, on a different level:

"Develop naval technologies": raise of 1 pt. the strenght of your ships x a specific amount of money (3.000 for example?)

"Create a spy network": gain the ability to see what happens in another nation's territory for 20 turns x a specific amoun of money (4.500 for example?)

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:59 pm
by GodOfNothing
The only one i never use is "Land Tax law" and i agree with jimwinsor's post

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 2:56 am
by choppinlt
First I would like to say that really like the Decisions, because of the flavor it adds. My recollections and thoughts about the current decisions are generally reflected by the jimwinsor post as well. I will add that there a few decisions that I would like to see a clearer explanation in their effect. One I recall was the "completely reform the state". I chose that decision one time and I had all sorts of internal issues occur with no obvious gain over the course of many turns. Caveat-this was a couple months/patches ago, so this particular example may have been addressed.

Here are some additional ideas:
Make some decisions mandatory (instead of all being optional);
Create some decisions that have no immediate or obvious right/wrong/good/bad impact, but will create a decision train that will end up having some sort of future impact;
Perhaps allowing the emergency levy decision to use various resources and/or impact the CDR in lieu of legacy;
A decision allowing the use of resources to create legacy (this could represent the major allocation of resources to legacy more abstractly not represented by the buildings in a region/province);
A decision to create a " world wonder" at the cost of resources;
Decision points regarding empire development. A faction's government mods, faction mods, and characteristics could evolve from decisions. If the Lysichamids exist in 100CE should they still have the same aging characteristics used to replicate the post-Alexander era 400 years earlier? Perhaps the Carthaginians conquer enough population they evolve in to a stronger more conventional land force at the expense of their naval bonuses...just some examples.
Could create decisions that only impact a province or two.

There could be LOT's of decisions that revolve around diplomacy, but I will wait for that patch before going down that path. :)

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 4:56 am
by Ludendorf
Hmm...

How about this?

Power and Accountability: Decadence and Leadership.

Options would include:

A minor reduction in decadence/reduction of decadence in very specific regions and/or a small reduction in government age. (basically, an anti-corruption purge.) Expensive.
A major reduction in decadence/widespread decadence reduction and/or a moderate reduction in government age, but with the risk of backfiring and instead increasing unrest/decadence as the wrong people are prosecuted. Exorbitant to the point of requiring a leader with good administration to really make it worthwhile.
Provincial reforms that have a good chance of sweeping the board clear of corrupt governors and other mismanagement-related events. Fairly cheap, but has a small chance of creating a loss of loyalty instead as governors avoid prosecution and smear the central government instead.
Army reforms which force bad generals into retirement. Minor chance a good general will be forced to retire instead. This would need to be implemented carefully, as a 0-0 general with Determined or Wilderness Expert can be quite useful despite his shortcomings.

The decadence options would be expensive as they are driving directly against what seems to be one of the core ideas of the game; that no form of government can stay young and dynamic forever and will eventually age. This does, however, give a weapon to players who value and want to pursue long-term stability, allowing them to trade resources for time.

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:42 am
by Southern Hunter
I dont use 'Building development focus' in practice. I can IMAGINE It being useful, but never found it so.
I find the exploration missions generally impossible and ignore them
I generally find the trade improvement way too expensive to contemplate

Re: Poll on decisions

Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 12:45 am
by Southern Hunter
Geffalrus wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:05 am I mostly only played Antigonids...
That is fascinating. I try and play different styles all the time. You must be pretty great with the Antigonid faction if that is all you play!

I just played a game as Antigonid and found them incredibly strong, once you can stabilise the early game (culture problems and wars everywhere).