Slitherine

Ok, somebody help me out here.

I'm building up a Swiss army, late 1400s, so more pikes and handguns, less crossbows and halberds. My main opponent and I tend to play large battles, 900 points per side. We like to have alot of toys.

So, with that, and such a large army, why would I NOT take pikes in blocks of 12? I've seen several Swiss lists out there that keep the pikes to blocks of 8. I'm not sure why give up the extra POA, except for point cost. I'm thinking 5 blocks of pikes with 12 bases each is a nice start.

What am I missing?

Steve B

Pike blocks of 8, 2 wide, 4 deep retain their same configuration when turning 90 degrees. a 3 wide, 4 deep block becomes 2 x 6 when it turns 90. There also seems to be a trend toward minimum sized BGs to increase manuever options and increase the number of BGs in the army.

Additionally to what gozerius mentioned, wider BGs tend to suffer more hits, hence run a slightly higher risk of losing a base (even if winning).

And a lot of people use pikes in tens. They can afford to lose a base.

But generally not Swiss ones as you need the army width. I have seen 10s of AVE pike prove quite a good idea in the past.

lots of 8s for Swiss seems to work well.

Si

12s mean less BGs in the army. So the enemy picking away at your flank units might hurt you more. And if people decline to fight you frontally it might make it harded for your army to fan out.

Not sure what you mean about the POA? POAs will be the same whether you're 8s or 12s.

The big advantage of 8s is that you can rear support with a 4 of halberdiers. I found that with 8s of pike, an IC and halberdiers in the right places I was almost immune to missiles.

except against indians

Wow.. ok so the intricacies of pike combat are more complex than I'd imagined... I'll have to work on this some more. Clearly some more number crunching...

Hammy, immune to missiles is going to be a big concern, especially since I'll be playing vs. HYW English half the time.

Grahambriggs, my POA mention was b/c I wasn't thinking of a block of 8 in a 2x4 pattern. At the moment, I have a habit of deploying wide, so I automatically assumed a frontage of 3 bases, regardless of the size of the BG... just me being inflexible. Block of 8 in a 2x4 is going to be like a lot of little spear point BGs (or pike point?) marching around. Not a bad thing, I see.

Rattleshirt wrote: Grahambriggs, my POA mention was b/c I wasn't thinking of a block of 8 in a 2x4 pattern. At the moment, I have a habit of deploying wide, so I automatically assumed a frontage of 3 bases, regardless of the size of the BG... just me being inflexible. Block of 8 in a 2x4 is going to be like a lot of little spear point BGs (or pike point?) marching around. Not a bad thing, I see.

Yikes! Frontage of 3 bases not bad for manouver but horrible if you get into combat. Yes this would be much worse than 12 BG 3 wide. Pike need to be 4 deep against most things that will fight them.

shall wrote:except against indians

Well as I was stupid enough to send my IC off on a wild goose chase to attempt to rally an unimportant BG I got everything I deserved.

I suspect that I would not make the same mistake again

Alright, I'm lost again..

Frontage of 3 bases not bad for manouver but horrible if you get into combat. Yes this would be much worse than 12 BG 3 wide

Why is a BG with 3 bases in the front bad for combat?

I figured a handful of BG with 12 bases each in a 3 front, 4 deep formation.. I see the problems maneuvering it, but it's going to have awesome staying power once it's in close combat. As for flank charges, my other BG would be there to oppose them.

Sorry for my ignorance. I'm trying to plan out this army and with no experience with Swiss or pikes it's not completely clear. I could see reducing the size to 2x4 for more BG across the army as a whole and for BG maneuver. I guess there could be an intimidation factor for a large BG of Swiss pike as well, no?

Again, I'm all theoretical at this point, so sorry if this stuff has been covered before. No expert am I.

Steve B

block sizes for swiss?

generally you want then about 1/2 inch cubed.

otherwise they never really melt properly in the fondue.

OT,

I see your point, but generally with fondue, I prefer a stronger taste than swiss.

The other argument for 12s is that a general in combat means re-rolling 1s and 2s. And its quite a killing machine. Although being swiss often means you don't need or can't afford the general.

The thinned out pike mean you get only 1 POA which means a lot more types may be willing to test their metal versus you. I would only do it, if you find your pick on the wrong side of the board are are just going to push some LH away. A job for poor pike undrilled like guarding a camp.

Although if you are anywhere near the middle of the board it is probably a much wiser move to turn 90 a march to the sound of the fighting and go 4 deep.