Slitherine

Back in the good old days, light infantry with javelins were supposed to be the antidote to elephants (though it didn't always work, at least there was a chance it would do so). I'm wondering what is supposed to happen when elephants meet light javelinmen in the open, as all I have seen is that the elephants just run over them.

vakarr wrote: ↑Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:27 pm Back in the good old days, light infantry with javelins were supposed to be the antidote to elephants (though it didn't always work, at least there was a chance it would do so). I'm wondering what is supposed to happen when elephants meet light javelinmen in the open, as all I have seen is that the elephants just run over them.

They are supposed to throw javelins at them, not fight hand to hand.

In the past the theory was they would throw javelins then get out of the way of the elephants, then throw some more, as they were in a dispersed formation and did not present a solid target.

vakarr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:36 am In the past the theory was they would throw javelins then get out of the way of the elephants, then throw some more, as they were in a dispersed formation and did not present a solid target.

That is called evading.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:37 am

vakarr wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:36 am In the past the theory was they would throw javelins then get out of the way of the elephants, then throw some more, as they were in a dispersed formation and did not present a solid target.

That is called evading.

yes But, do they get to discharge their javs before 'evading'.

You don't get to shoot while evading; you have to do that during your own movement. Ideally, you move up and shoot, or better yet, position yourself so the enemy can just reach your effective weapon range, but not your troops themselves. Tougher to do with javelinmen, given their short range, but doable, especially if you park in slowing terrain.

Most of the time your javelinmen won't be in terrain unsuitable for elephants if they are trying to shoot at elephants so maybe they get one shot then charged by the elephants and the elephants hit them in the rear and destroy them after they evade. For instance, Zama was fought in open terrain. Elephants don't suffer much of a disadvantage in rough terrain anyway.

It's best to use javelinmen on the flanks or rear of elephant to avoid getting trampled, while your archers and slingers engage them in the frontal arc at longer and safer range. Alternatively, you can use the javelinmen as bait and position some foot to take the elephants in flank when they charge and pursue your javelins.

yea well , funny ya'll mention this becasue I played Dara, and the Arab elephants apparently take dance lessons they are so light on their feet the ditch in front of my infantry didn't disorder them or slow them a bit, they stomped their guts out and kept on coming and coming and coming...the 3 Eele. units whacked out oh, 2 units EACH( and 2 of them had been engaged from a flank with medium foot), they didn't disorder or take more than 1 casualty. It became so stupid to watch I abandoned the game.

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Historically the javelinmen were regarded as equally useful whether they hit the flanks or the front of elephants.

Light javelinmen are better at disrupting elephants at range than any other ranged troops, other than naphtha throwers. No player is going to be foolish enough to trundle into range of your waiting javelinmen with their +20% bonus for standing still. So you will have to run into range to get your volley off, or approach from the flanks. They can also be useful in a standoff - say your phalanx is ZoCd in front of some elephants, or your Scutarii are safely in rough facing a unit of Elephants in the open. If the elephants charge, they will lose the melee eventually, so they stand. If the phalanx charges, there is a high chance of disrupting on Impact due to charging against Elephants. At that point your 72pt phalanx is locked against 60pt elephants, a waste. Bring up a unit of javelinmen though, and the elephants have to charge into a doomed melee, or just lose cohesion to missile fire and rout.

The game isn't a rock paper scissors affair, you have to maneuver and work for your counters.

No player is going to trundle into range of javelinmen when they can just charge them instead and expect to win
light javelinmen should be able to keep their light spear bonus when fighting elephants in melee

vakarr wrote: ↑Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:57 am No player is going to trundle into range of javelinmen when they can just charge them instead and expect to win
light javelinmen should be able to keep their light spear bonus when fighting elephants in melee

You can't just charge and win. Elephants have a movement range of 3. Light javs do, too. So elephants have to move into range of the javelinmen's move and fire range before they can try to charge. If they charge, the javelinmen evade, with the elephants pursuing, possibly into a dangerous situation. The dynamic between light javelinmen and elephants is well balanced as it stands, and giving the light javs a melee bonus against elephants would be unbalanced and require repricing. Elephants had been a steal before at 54 points; at 60 points, they are priced appropriately, I think.