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A question and a clarification needed
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:10 pm
by Mord
Question
I have had two games in a row not end once I pushed the enemy over the 40% threshold. Both times the AI had its full turn and then it was thrown back to me and ended up going about two full turns before the surrender. Both times my score was at around 23% and the enemy was around 42%. Is there a variable for the 40%-25% rule? That if it's too close the losing player gets a few turns to see if they can close the gap? Or am I not understanding how it works? The way I read it is if I have lost less than 25% of my forces and the enemy has lost 40% or more of his forces, I win.
Clarification
The manual states:
If troops inside a terrain feature are in close combat with troops outside, then the troops outside will suffer the disorder penalties as if inside the terrain if they are attacking into it, but not if the enemy is attacking out of it. Either way the combat will not count as if “in open terrain”.
Okay, I have a unit of Roman Legionaries and they are facing a Warband occupying a tile of rough ground. So, does it mean my guys only suffer the disorder effects if I initiate a charge? Or does it mean they are only penalized on my turns after the two have locked in battle? Or both? This has never been clear to me.
Mord.
Re: A question and a clarification needed
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:46 pm
by TheGrayMouser
Mord wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 12:10 pm
Question
I have had two games in a row not end once I pushed the enemy over the 40% threshold. Both times the AI had its full turn and then it was thrown back to me and ended up going about two full turns before the surrender. Both times my score was at around 23% and the enemy was around 42%. Is there a variable for the 40%-25% rule? That if it's too close the losing player gets a few turns to see if they can close the gap? Or am I not understanding how it works? The way I read it is if I have lost less than 25% of my forces and the enemy has lost 40% or more of his forces, I win.
Clarification
The manual states:
If troops inside a terrain feature are in close combat with troops outside, then the troops outside will suffer the disorder penalties as if inside the terrain if they are attacking into it, but not if the enemy is attacking out of it. Either way the combat will not count as if “in open terrain”.
Okay, I have a unit of Roman Legionaries and they are facing a Warband occupying a tile of rough ground. So, does it mean my guys only suffer the disorder effects if I initiate a charge? Or does it mean they are only penalized on my turns after the two have locked in battle? Or both? This has never been clear to me.
Mord.
To win you need at least 40% of the enemy broken AND have a 25% "lead" ie the difference between your losses and the enemies losses
So if you inflicted exactly at 40%, your opponent could have inflicted no more than 15% on you for the win. The second victory is whomever breaks the army by inflicting 60% first.
The game track whom initiated the combat so in your sample, the Warband attacks, it gets the disorder effect until units break off or are destroyed. Neither unit counts as "being in the open" which can effect cohesion tests or POA's potentially...
Re: A question and a clarification needed
Posted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:38 pm
by Mord
TheGrayMouser wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:46 pm
To win you need at least 40% of the enemy broken AND have a 25% "lead" ie the difference between your losses and the enemies losses. So if you inflicted exactly at 40%, your opponent could have inflicted no more than 15% on you for the win.
Ok. I was mixing up the two. I confused the 25% losses with the 25% lead (I'd forgotten about the 15% losses). So the green and orange (+ & -) numbers in parenthesizes to the right of your losses are the lead and deficit percentages, correct? At least that's what I thought they were. You are doing better if your number is green and shows the minus.
TheGrayMouser wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 3:46 pmThe game track whom initiated the combat so in your sample, the Warband attacks, it gets the disorder effect until units break off or are destroyed. Neither unit counts as "being in the open" which can effect cohesion tests or POA's potentially...
So, if you
aren't in the rough terrain it's best to let the unit
that is attack you and then you won't ever suffer the penalty? And if you have a unit that isn't disordered by being in rough terrain (like medium foot), it's best to let the enemy attack you so they will suffer the penalty (as long as rough effects them that is)?
Mord.
Re: A question and a clarification needed
Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:42 am
by SnuggleBunnies
Mord wrote: ↑Sun Sep 29, 2019 6:38 pm
So, if you
aren't in the rough terrain it's best to let the unit
that is attack you and then you won't ever suffer the penalty? And if you have a unit that isn't disordered by being in rough terrain (like medium foot), it's best to let the enemy attack you so they will suffer the penalty (as long as rough effects them that is)?
Mord.
Correct on both counts. The one thing to keep in mind is that certain units have Impact or melee POAs or cohesion tests that are affected by whether the combat is in the Open. So your unit standing on open ground, fighting a unit attacking out of broken terrain, will still not be fighting on open ground. The same goes for even small streams that have no impact on the order of a unit - such a combat will still not be open.
Re: A question and a clarification needed
Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:56 am
by Mord
SnuggleBunnies wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:42 am
So your unit standing on open ground, fighting a unit attacking out of broken terrain, will still not be fighting on open ground. The same goes for even small streams that have no impact on the order of a unit - such a combat will still not be open.
So, just to be clear, I wouldn't have to worry about an impact cohesion test, if say, I had medium foot on an open tile being charged by heavy foot out of a rough terrain tile?
And to touch on the other subject. Ideally I want to keep my routs at 15% (or less) vs the Enemy's 40% to get an immediate win. However, as long as I don't surpass 25% of total losses I can still push an early victory (using the 25% difference rule) without it kicking over to the 60% long battle. EX: If I lost 23% I can still end it early if I can get the Enemy to 48% or more?
Btw. I appreciate you guys taking the time. Sometimes I can be a little dense.
Mord.
Re: A question and a clarification needed
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:44 am
by MVP7
If enemy has losses anywhere between 40% and 60% and you have a lead of 25 percentage points at the end of enemy turn you will win.
Re: A question and a clarification needed
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:36 pm
by Strategiusz
Mord wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:56 am
So, just to be clear, I wouldn't have to worry about an impact cohesion test, if say, I had medium foot on an open tile being charged by heavy foot out of a rough terrain tile?
I think that medium foot still has a penalty to cohesion tests because the fight is on open terrain. However the heavy foot is disordered so it i easier to not to lose against it.
Re: A question and a clarification needed
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:52 pm
by rbodleyscott
Strategiusz wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:36 pm
Mord wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:56 am
So, just to be clear, I wouldn't have to worry about an impact cohesion test, if say, I had medium foot on an open tile being charged by heavy foot out of a rough terrain tile?
I think that medium foot still has a penalty to cohesion tests because the fight is on open terrain. However the heavy foot is disordered so it i easier to not to lose against it.
No, because the combat does not count as "in open terrain" if either unit is in non-open terrain.
Re: A question and a clarification needed
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:25 pm
by MVP7
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:52 pm
Strategiusz wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:36 pm
Mord wrote: ↑Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:56 am
So, just to be clear, I wouldn't have to worry about an impact cohesion test, if say, I had medium foot on an open tile being charged by heavy foot out of a rough terrain tile?
I think that medium foot still has a penalty to cohesion tests because the fight is on open terrain. However the heavy foot is disordered so it i easier to not to lose against it.
No, because the combat does not count as "in open terrain" if either unit is in non-open terrain.
Does that also apply to a situation where medium infantry attacks from a rough tile and the opponent is in open tile?
Re: A question and a clarification needed
Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:37 pm
by rbodleyscott
MVP7 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:25 pm
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:52 pm
Strategiusz wrote: ↑Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:36 pm
I think that medium foot still has a penalty to cohesion tests because the fight is on open terrain. However the heavy foot is disordered so it i easier to not to lose against it.
No, because the combat does not count as "in open terrain" if either unit is in non-open terrain.
Does that also apply to a situation where medium infantry attacks from a rough tile and the opponent is in open tile?
Yes. For a combat to count as "in open terrain"
both combatants must be in open terrain and there must be no obstacle in between. The CT modifier for MF fighting HF only applies if the combat is "in open terrain".
This is a different issue from disorder. In your example the opponent would not suffer rough terrain disorder. But the combat would not be "in open terrain" so any POAs requiring open terrain would not apply.
(This is stated in the manual, section 17.4)
Re: A question and a clarification needed
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:02 pm
by MVP7
Thanks.
Re: A question and a clarification needed
Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 10:23 pm
by Mord
Yes, thanks to everyone for all the answers. I've got it down now.
Mord.