Slitherine

So I was loading up multiple nations to get an idea of traits, costs, starting situations etc. for various countries before the diplomacy game. I don't think my knowledge of various nations is as good as others so this seemed like half-decent prep. Anyway, I went to check the Antigonids starting traits because I've never played them and I thought that it was 5 wars: no ageing, 3 wars: half ageing, <3 wars: double ageing. This alone seemed a bit problematic because of how easy it is to circumvent the requirement by warring random nations. The AI doesn't tend to be too aggressive or creative about getting at you if your not contiguous, so any smaller country without a land border can easily have a war maintained against it without any real cost (except war weariness I guess).

However, when I looked at it, it turns out that actually its 5 wars: age decreases, 3 wars: no ageing, <3 wars: double ageing. That is a lot worse, even if you're not going for the full five wars. I'm not 100% sure how every mechanic works but I thought you get a reduction in age through objective conquests as well as events and government changes. This means that even with 3 proxy wars running your government age on balance is probably decreasing? (not sure if the 3% decline happens outside of stable, so we'll leave that aside for now). Meanwhile, while circumventing their major drawback of having to be constantly at war with multiple nations, the bonuses, leaders and generals (not to mention sheer starting size and wealth) are insane.

In single player I don't think it matters because the AI is super aggressive so the Antigonids are in a host of serious wars that they both chose and didn't choose, so I think you largely see it play out as the developer intended. This probably explains the difficult time that the Antigonids so often have in most single player games (although not always), i've often seen them completely fall apart (lost a lot of territory and fragmented, not eliminated) within the first 100 turns. However in multiplayer this seems like it is a bit more of a problem if a somewhat experienced player is at the helm. Normally my theory would be that players should solve these problems themselves (at least until its patched), but looking at the host of positive modifiers that the Antigonids get and the extreme bonus of even 3 proxy wars (particularly for a nation that starts at glorious with all the benefits that confers without the drawback of massive and increasing age penalties), I just think its a bit too much.

I'm usually one for these problems, in multiplayer, to be solved by players, particularly where a game is already asymmetrical and has the potential for intense diplomacy. But the sheer difficulty for nearby nations to both deal with the threat and their multitude of actual, working as intended, drawbacks (ptolemies fleet balancing and threat from the south, Seleucids imminent Maurya threat and Saka) just seems like it might have crossed the line in terms of balance even in an asymmetrical game.

Anyway, maybe this is not news to anyone or I've misunderstood the ageing mechanic, but either way, this really doesn't seem to be how the developer intended it to work. I'm hoping this gets a solution sometime soon in an update, not just for balance, which is probably less important, but more to create the unstable bull in a china shop feel I think the Antigonids were meant to have.

Sorry, don't mean this to besmirch anyone who's played the antigonids and used the workaround, frankly I don't really mind if you do until they fix it as it would be almost impossible to regulate a house rule on this, and trying to would probably just start an online litigation process in the forums. I was just a little shocked when I saw all the Antigonid nation traits, leader and generals in comparison to other nations. To me it felt like a ww2 game where you got to keep Russia's lands and manpower but could avoid the leadership purges and outdated equipment.

ledo wrote: ↑Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:54 am Sorry, don't mean this to besmirch anyone who's played the antigonids and used the workaround, frankly I don't really mind if you do until they fix it as it would be almost impossible to regulate a house rule on this, and trying to would probably just start an online litigation process in the forums. I was just a little shocked when I saw all the Antigonid nation traits, leader and generals in comparison to other nations. To me it felt like a ww2 game where you got to keep Russia's lands and manpower but could avoid the leadership purges and outdated equipment.

These factors are indeed all problematic but like most things in life every action creates a reaction.

As players become more familiar with the power of the Antigonids I am finding the willingness of even marginal players in MP games to join in the challenge of redressing this imbalance is greatly increased. In essence the "target" design on the back of Antigonus's robe just gets bigger.

Whether this happens in the new game I do not know but the more recent MP games that have started and that I have been involved in this phenomenon has caused huge, (sometimes insurmountable) problems for the Antigonid player.

devoncop wrote: ↑Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:42 am

ledo wrote: ↑Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:54 am Sorry, don't mean this to besmirch anyone who's played the antigonids and used the workaround, frankly I don't really mind if you do until they fix it as it would be almost impossible to regulate a house rule on this, and trying to would probably just start an online litigation process in the forums. I was just a little shocked when I saw all the Antigonid nation traits, leader and generals in comparison to other nations. To me it felt like a ww2 game where you got to keep Russia's lands and manpower but could avoid the leadership purges and outdated equipment.

These factors are indeed all problematic but like most things in life every action creates a reaction.

As players become more familiar with the power of the Antigonids I am finding the willingness of even marginal players in MP games to join in the challenge of redressing this imbalance is greatly increased. In essence the "target" design on the back of Antigonus's robe just gets bigger.

Whether this happens in the new game I do not know but the more recent MP games that have started and that I have been involved in this phenomenon has caused huge, (sometimes insurmountable) problems for the Antigonid player.

No I agree, and that's why I don't think its the end of the world, nor do I think you should be blamed for using it. Players should absolutely just adapt to it. But even that logic has become a bit strained looking at the sheer weight of advantages the Antigonids have.

Still my main point (as i stated in my post balance is not the main problem), would be that it ruins what is obviously the intended character of the nation. Looking at the current situation, a bit of diplomacy can create an extremely stable state that can pick and choose it's targets. Without the workaround playing like that would cause you to generate massive ageing and spiral out to old. To keep ageing down you would be an absolute hurricane forcing everyone to deal with you at once, and expanding rapidly to the point that ageing is no longer your problem but just straight decadence. However neither of the previous two situations are likely to happen unless a player feels like it, and I think that needs to be fixed.

Anyway, I don't mean to sound like a balancing defeatist or something. We'll see how it goes in the more recent game and how players are able to manage it. I was just genuinely shocked when I realised how much better the other modifiers, starting leaders and ageing benefit was than I actually thought it was, and I already was pretty worried .

And so you think you can DOW the Picts to get a free war?
Sure you can DOW the Picts. Now, aside from adding more War Exhaustion (something you did not factor in the list of potential problems for ANT), I can tell you it won't achieve what you think it will!

To be fair I did mention war weariness in the first paragraph. But it's easy to miss. What are the conditions for a war, do the picts not count. Usually I see players dowed on countries like Colchis or Bosporus, relatively close, but unlikely to attack you. Is there some other condition that has to be met, as I said I haven't playtested them, so I was unsure if understood it correctly.