Slitherine

I've been working on this video https://youtu.be/-P5I-YJu1zU and have found out a few useful things - I thought at BUA was difficult terrain, for instance, but in fact it is rough terrain. However I am a bit stumped to be able to say what the POA effect is of being disordered or severely disordered on elephants and impact foot (apart from a -1 for cohesion tests when severely disordered). What can I say about that? I finally found the "Hellenistic" typo so I guess I'll have to do a revised version.

Also, I couldn't find a FOG 2 terrain picture of medium or heavy fortifications.

terrain doesn't effect POA. It only starts kicking in after POA translated into win-draw-loss percentage.

melm wrote: ↑Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:31 am terrain doesn't effect POA. It only starts kicking in after POA translated into win-draw-loss percentage.

That doesn't sound correct.

vakarr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:09 am I've been working on this video https://youtu.be/-P5I-YJu1zU and have found out a few useful things - I thought at BUA was difficult terrain, for instance, but in fact it is rough terrain. However I am a bit stumped to be able to say what the POA effect is of being disordered or severely disordered on elephants and impact foot (apart from a -1 for cohesion tests when severely disordered). What can I say about that? I finally found the "Hellenistic" typo so I guess I'll have to do a revised version.

Also, I couldn't find a FOG 2 terrain picture of medium or heavy fortifications.

I'm yet to see fortifications in any form. There seems to be an alternative FOG2 universe to which I'm not aware of. Hang on, now I recall RBS's comments of the Illuminate to which I'm not privy.

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:41 am

melm wrote: ↑Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:31 am terrain doesn't effect POA. It only starts kicking in after POA translated into win-draw-loss percentage.

That doesn't sound correct.

It doesn't if we go for the details of different unit types, but in general it does. I regard them as exceptions.

OK so if a Roman legionary goes into a wood, he becomes severely disordered, and what is the result of that precisely?

If you want to see some fortifications, download the Alesia scenario - though that only uses Field, or Light, Fortifications.

Currently there are only Light Fortifications available in the Editor. They do not feature in any official scenarios, Custom Battles, or Campaigns. They are a carry over from Pike and Shot, so do not have proper textures.

I believe that the code for Medium and Heavy Fortifications is still in FOG2, but there are no models or textures. They of course do not feature in any official battle or campaigns.

Some user created scenarios have been created that feature fortifications, such as Odenathus' Alesia and my Panormus, they all feature models and textures adapted from other games.

Most players won't ever see them.

Terrain causes disorder and can negate Open terrain, so indirectly does affect POA greatly.

I will now sit back and wait for the deluge of posts saying that I am wrong!

Supposing a standard Roman cohort attacks sth. Let's say massed archers.
Impact phase.

Roman cohort gets +200 POA for impact foot, +50 POA for superiority quality.
massed archers. No impact capability.
So Roman gets 200 POA, which translates to about 65% probability advantage.

Because cohort is severely disrupted, then about 45% modified. Massed archers also moderately disrupted, so -22% modified.


Anyway, the impact POA for the legion cohort doesn't diminish when they charging into woods. Roman lost some probability advantage only through its cohesion state.

Oh dear, if you look at the POA table in the manual, you will see several troop types whose POA is affected by being disordered:

I also should have highlighted all these of course:



A lot of terrain does not count as open, so the mounted troops lose their POA as above.

No point arguing semantics. The answer to the original question in the most technical sense is that PoA does not change by being disordered or disrupted.
The negative effects are calculated on top of baseline PoA but such things can affect what PoA you get assigned on the PoA lookup table. This happens with a lot of other situations too like inf charging shock cav vs recieving a charge.

Though I think most people understand instinctively that being disrupted or disordered is a bad thing though and will negatively affect bottom line performance

MikeC_81 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:33 pm No point arguing semantics. The answer to the original question in the most technical sense is that PoA does not change by being disordered or disrupted.
The negative effects are calculated on top of baseline PoA but such things can affect what PoA you get assigned on the PoA lookup table. This happens with a lot of other situations too like inf charging shock cav vs recieving a charge.

Though I think most people understand instinctively that being disrupted or disordered is a bad thing though and will negatively affect bottom line performance

I did not realise that vakarr was originally talking about just Elephants and Impact Foot in disordering terrain. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yes I've always gone with the instinctive way of things, not bothering to work out the POA but looking at the troop type and the terrain to assess the likely result - but legionaries seem to be able to ignore terrain (certainly I've seen Roman players behave this way on YouTube) so I was wondering how they are disadvantaged as there is no disadvantage for impact foot in any sort of terrain. So being severely disordered gives a - 45% percentage point reduction in the final calculation of success and being disordered gives a lower percentage? Clearly I'm going to have to run through some test games to find out exactly what is going on.

vakarr wrote: ↑Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:10 pm Yes I've always gone with the instinctive way of things, not bothering to work out the POA but looking at the troop type and the terrain to assess the likely result - but legionaries seem to be able to ignore terrain (certainly I've seen Roman players behave this way on YouTube) so I was wondering how they are disadvantaged as there is no disadvantage for impact foot in any sort of terrain. So being severely disordered gives a - 45% percentage point reduction in the final calculation of success and being disordered gives a lower percentage? Clearly I'm going to have to run through some test games to find out exactly what is going on.

Legionaries take terrain penalties like everyone else. But their more elite units are so stupidly powerful (300 PoA) on impact that they can on occasion just ignore terrain altogether against lesser foes. For example Vet Roman Legionaries, despite being hobbled in rough terrain STILL have 50% chance to beat Thureophoroi in rough terrain on Impact and is pretty even afterwards.

OK so it's a - 22% penalty for disordered, and - 45% for severely disordered, calculated after all other factors (assuming it's not fragmented etc)