Slitherine

A superior hoplite unit would go a long way towards a) making Greek rosters feel more unique and interesting, giving access to a Palace Guard unit that could give a good RP reason to get attached to specific commanders and b) would allow historically powerful Greek states like Syracuse compete against their neighbors. At present both Carthage and Rome way outclass Syracuse, and the Gauls massively outclass Massalia and Emporion. Perhaps tie it to a high-level barracks building, or a palace building?

Thorakitai, Peltasts, (massed and skirmish) and Lancers would be nice too -- anything to increase Hellenic roster variety. It's a lot of fun at present but without FOG2 I doubt I'd be able to win any battles as either of the two states I mentioned.

Add a +2 general against no general and they all become superior or elite etc

but without FOG2 I doubt I'd be able to win any battles

Agreed! I found myself drawn to the smaller greek city states like Massalia, Syracuse, and Cyrene but they just can not compete with their larger neighbors. If it wasnt for FOG2 battles my campaigns would have ended in defeat a couple times now.

While its definitely realistic and enjoyable i wonder what could be done to help them out. Its possible against the AI but i dont see how a person playing as Syracuse could survive against a human Rome/Carthage

I don't get it, you have access to heavy infantry that can become improved heavy infantry, basically imitation legions.

Pocus wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:37 pm I don't get it, you have access to heavy infantry that can become improved heavy infantry, basically imitation legions.

Maybe what's actually needed is some way for new players to have some advanced notice of what unit upgrades they're likely to benefit from. The total war series has a tech tree, for example. You probably don't need something so elaborate, but maybe a section of the nation screen that lists future upgrades so that the player has some idea of what they can look forward to.

But improved units don't become the advanced type in Field of Glory II if you export the battle. Thureophoroi are still thureophoroi, Javelins are still javelins. Why not have them become peltasts and Thorakitai/imitation legions? That would be way cooler and way more historically accurate, and would add some desperately needed variety to the Greek roster.

antiochosvii wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:38 pm But improved units don't become the advanced type in Field of Glory II if you export the battle. Thureophoroi are still thureophoroi, Javelins are still javelins. Why not have them become peltasts and Thorakitai/imitation legions? That would be way cooler and way more historically accurate, and would add some desperately needed variety to the Greek roster.

Peltasts were largely obsolete by 310 BC.

http://lukeuedasarson.com/Iphikrates1.html

http://lukeuedasarson.com/Iphikrates2.html

Hellenistic heavy infantry already get upgraded to Imitation Legions.

It would be nice to have thorakitai, but they were never a numerically major type and it would be rather unhistorical for upgraded regular infantry to all be thorakitai. At present regular and upgraded regular infantry both convert to thureophoroi, but the improved unit converts to more of them, so the cost of improvement is not wasted.

Luke Ueda Sarson has done some incredible work, so it's always good to see that research utilized.

Geffalrus wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:35 pm Luke Ueda Sarson has done some incredible work, so it's always good to see that research utilized.

His analysis of the Notitia Dignitatum is also excellent, although not relevant to the period covered by Empires.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:20 am

antiochosvii wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:38 pm But improved units don't become the advanced type in Field of Glory II if you export the battle. Thureophoroi are still thureophoroi, Javelins are still javelins. Why not have them become peltasts and Thorakitai/imitation legions? That would be way cooler and way more historically accurate, and would add some desperately needed variety to the Greek roster.

Peltasts were largely obsolete by 310 BC.

http://lukeuedasarson.com/Iphikrates1.html

http://lukeuedasarson.com/Iphikrates2.html

Hellenistic heavy infantry already get upgraded to Imitation Legions.

It would be nice to have thorakitai, but they were never a numerically major type and it would be rather unhistorical for upgraded regular infantry to all be thorakitai. At present regular and upgraded regular infantry both convert to thureophoroi, but the improved unit converts to more of them, so the cost of improvement is not wasted.

Sorry I should have been more specific, I meant the Thureophoroi-variant skirmisher known as "Euzonoi" in Field of Glory II. With a protected instead of unprotected armor class. It would be neat if skirmishers could upgrade into this unit, or alternatively a superior skirmisher unit could be produced from, say, the Barracks building. Overall I'm strongly in favor of more units existing in the rosters than the standard heavy infantry, regular infantry, etc. As another example, both Mercenary Infantry and Heavy Infantry for Judaea show up as the same unit. It would be nice if there was more variety, although of course this is coming from someone who always plays linked battles in FOGII.

I didn't know that about heavy infantry -- I guess I've never fought a battle with upgraded hoplite foot yet. That's pretty cool.

Regarding my initial proposal, what are your thoughts on adding an elite infantry unit for Greek factions a la the Sacred Band for Carthage? Such troops certainly existed, and it would make it a lot more fun, fair, and immersive if we could have access to Palace Guard regiments to recruit into our forces. Syracuse and Massalia especially could benefit greatly from a stronger hoplite unit to balance out having to face down vastly superior soldiers from their rivals. I have a successful Massalia game going, but as I said, it would have been an utter flop had I not deployed my considerable military genius in FOGII.

antiochosvii wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:31 pmRegarding my initial proposal, what are your thoughts on adding an elite infantry unit for Greek factions a la the Sacred Band for Carthage? Such troops certainly existed, and it would make it a lot more fun, fair, and immersive if we could have access to Palace Guard regiments to recruit into our forces. Syracuse and Massalia especially could benefit greatly from a stronger hoplite unit to balance out having to face down vastly superior soldiers from their rivals. I have a successful Massalia game going, but as I said, it would have been an utter flop had I not deployed my considerable military genius in FOGII.

The problem is that the FOGE system is streamlined compared with FOG2, with a limited number of national templates - significantly less than the number of different states represented by their own FOG2 lists. The FOG2 conversions have to work with the the FOGE national templates, which entails some compromises.

There is one Hellenistic template, not separate Macedonian and Greek templates. So the question is which Hellenistic unit would translate to Superior Hoplites? Unless a new unit (or a separate Greek template) was added, it would have to be the Palace Guard unit (which currently translate to pikemen). This might be valid for the early part of Alexander's reign, representing the hypaspists, but it is fairly evident that the hypaspists had become pike phalanx before Alexander's death, so it would be a bit anachronistic to represent them as hoplites by 310 BC.

I agree it would be realistic for Massilia and Syracuse to have Palace Guard represented as Superior Hoplites, but in order to do so (without the Macedonian states also getting them, which would be unrealistic by 310 BC), there would have to be separate Macedonian and Greek templates.

All factions get a palace guard if they have the right building/fortification of their capital- and I've had to fight against them - it was superior hoplites (if an ordinary state) or superior pikes (if a diadochi or similar).

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:46 pm The problem is that the FOGE system is streamlined compared with FOG2, with a limited number of national templates - significantly less than the number of different states represented by their own FOG2 lists. The FOG2 conversions have to work with the the FOGE national templates, which entails some compromises.

There is one Hellenistic template, not separate Macedonian and Greek templates. So the question is which Hellenistic unit would translate to Superior Hoplites? Unless a new unit (or a separate Greek template) was added, it would have to be the Palace Guard unit (which currently translate to pikemen). This might be valid for the early part of Alexander's reign, representing the hypaspists, but it is fairly evident that the hypaspists had become pike phalanx before Alexander's death, so it would be a bit anachronistic to represent them as hoplites by 310 BC.

I agree it would be realistic for Massilia and Syracuse to have Palace Guard represented as Superior Hoplites, but in order to do so (without the Macedonian states also getting them, which would be unrealistic by 310 BC), there would have to be separate Macedonian and Greek templates.

Funny thing about this is that they're the only pike unit that doesn't get an assault penalty. They look like pikes, but they function more like heavy infantry.

Referring back to the original post, some states like Syracuse are completely outclassed. I had to abandon my game with Syracuse due to getting fed up with facing overwhelming odds (http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 34&t=93327) (I did lack some deeper game knowledge that I now have, but the problem remains).

Imitation legions usually become available too late to matter for Syracuse. I would simply propose that ordinary pike phalanxes are unlocked with tier II barracks, same as for most other Greeks. I think that it would be Ok to assume that Syracuseans would eventually follow the trend of mainland Greeks. Alternatively, give their starting roster 2-3 picked heavy infantry units (logades - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHo ... _(λογάδες) that will always translate into at least superior units in FoG:2 regardless of the general.

Demetrios_of_Messene wrote: ↑Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:12 am Referring back to the original post, some states like Syracuse are completely outclassed. I had to abandon my game with Syracuse due to getting fed up with facing overwhelming odds (viewtopic.php?f=534&t=93327) (I did lack some deeper game knowledge that I now have, but the problem remains).

Imitation legions usually become available too late to matter for Syracuse. I would simply propose that ordinary pike phalanxes are unlocked with tier II barracks, same as for most other Greeks. I think that it would be Ok to assume that Syracuseans would eventually follow the trend of mainland Greeks. Alternatively, give their starting roster 2-3 picked heavy infantry units (logades - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHo ... _(λογάδες) that will always translate into at least superior units in FoG:2 regardless of the general.

I could not have put it better myself. As someone else mentioned, Palace Guards already exist -- just allow us to recruit them. The Syracusan tyrants maintained guard regiments of considerable skill, as did nearly every significant Hellenic state in the Mediterranean.

There is a Palace Guard building that you can build, I think it's level 3 though. It increases your siege defence so it appears if you assault the capital amongst the defenders, which can happen in a FOG2 battle in the right circumstances.

vakarr wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:32 pm There is a Palace Guard building that you can build, I think it's level 3 though. It increases your siege defence so it appears if you assault the capital amongst the defenders, which can happen in a FOG2 battle in the right circumstances.

Assaults against fortified cities are not playable in FOG2, so I assume you mean that the units will appear only if you sally out. I do not think that this addresses the issue (not for me at least), as we are talking about units that can be regularly employed on the field (of glory or not) and stand a chance vs standard enemy troops (legions, warbands etc)

I just had a fight with a client nation that consisted of only two regions, and its capital was unfortified, yet when I attacked the capital it had a Palace Guard that consisted of two superior pike units. Possibly the 0-2 difference in our generals helped. I attacked with what I thought was a doom stack (combat power of 250+) but they matched it, with troops that were nearly all of better quality, though fewer in numbers. https://youtu.be/kSSf0uxqAHk