Slitherine

Comrades,
I am working on a scenario in which some units don't attack with the rest of their AI team. I can't figure this out and the playthroughs are getting real tedious!

I have checked everything -- the units are in AI teams in which all (except these slug-like nincompoops) attack as ordered (Search and Destroy, 20/75) and all the other units do their duty. 2 of the laggards are on one team and the 4 are on another, but settings are the same. I switched between advance to hex and search and destroy and got the same effect.

I am wondering if the AI can handle only so many units -- but why pick these 4 in the center and 2 on the left every time!? You might note that there are MANY units on the battlefield, but my computer handles it just fine, maybe 45 seconds for AI to contemplate the situation, then they carry out their orders. Except for these miscreants!

Imagine my consternation after a two-hour ordeal to get to the point where the panzers hit the seam between the Brits and US, but they just sit in the high ground -- I think they move a few hexes after deployment and then quit. Maybe they found a stash of wine or something. These guys had been sitting there at least 4 turns when I took the screen shots and I advanced a few more turns -- still there, waiting only a few steps from glory, while their comrades get chewed up by US and Brit artillery.

Any hints or troubleshooting tips would be helpful. What should I check?

signed,
troubled in Dixie,
conboy

ps sorry for the picture quality

conboy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:29 pmWhat should I check?

I apologize for the obvious but the first thing to check is whether those units are actually part of the AI team in question. Press the "j" key and it will show you what team they are assigned and if you see "-" (or a blank if you have something more than 20 teams or so, in which case, check it manually) instead of a number, then you neglected to assign them.

Next, dial up the aggression because 75 may not be enough to motivate the AI if it has analyzed the situation and it prefers to save these units rather than risking their destruction. We'd like to think that there is granularity between the default aggression of 50, your 75, and the max of 99 but given this situation (that's a heck of a lot of enemy firepower opposing them), 75 may have not much more effect than 50 and only by approaching 99 will they all move.

The other consideration that comes up when questions like these are asked is that the AI will "disobey orders" if it prioritizes protecting a victory point or a supply location. That is, it thinks it will lose these points if it moves the entire team so it will leave some units behind as guards. I see you have VPs over to the right and I am wondering if there is a supply hex near the panzers.

I have the same problem - mostly some artillery units stay back and dont drive forward !

JB72 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:01 am I have the same problem - mostly some artillery units stay back and dont drive forward !

That could be more of that AI "discretionary thinking" at work. Ordinarily, artillery units will not advance until forward areas are well-secured.

Another thought, by the way: Instead of lumping various types of units into the same AI teams, try segregating them by infantry, vehicle, and artillery. Orders given directly to panzer units may not be interpreted in quite the same way as orders to panzers teamed with expendable infantry units.

Guys, I'm sorry that I blather like this. It would be so nice if we had expert guidance in some form or another, but so much of this game is left to detective work and guesswork. I try to help but all I can do is to sleuth and guess along with the rest of us. Let's see if anybody else wants to take a stab at it.

Dang, Bru! That's some well-put advice! I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks!
conboy

conboy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:29 pmLazy units? Why part of AI team(s) sits it out?

Hi mate I did a thread about it a couple of weeks ago which might give you some clues-

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 74&t=92041

In a nutshell, my AI attack force kept dropping off valuable units to garrison rear area flag hexes during their advance to the front line, and I solved it by deploying static infantry garrison units in those hexes right from the start so that the main force never had to bleed off units to do garrison duty.
(And for the record my main AI force all has Seek/Destroy orders, Distance 99, Aggression 65)

I've got a few more ideas that might kickstart your lazy units into action, but I'd really have to know exactly what all the parameters are in your scenario such as objectives, supply levels, purchase point income etc.
As Bru said, "the AI will "disobey orders" if it prioritizes protecting a victory point or a supply location.", so we have to get inside the mind of the AI to work out how to override its occasional quirkiness..
Can you send me the scen file to analyse in my test laboratory?

Also, check the number of units assigned to a AI Team.
Personally, I try to set the max to 15-20 units.
This may lower the AI thinking time as well, especially for naval teams (lots of possible movement locations).

Hey Conboy I just remembered another thread of mine from a few weeks ago about "lazy" units which might give you some more clues..-

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 74&t=91400

It touches on Aggression levels, as apparently if the Agg level is left at default '50', the AI tends to hold some units back "in reserve", so we have to give AI units an Agg level higher than 50. Personally I currently find level 65 is making my German AI force perform okay, but whether that'll suit other nationalities or not remains to be seen.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT- Here's another idea you could try-
Instead of Seek/Destroy orders, give one of your AI teams 'Move to hex' orders, (for example your panzer spearhead units) which might stop them being lazy..

While testing mass-movement, I’ve also observed some idleness after turn 2 or 3. From 60 units in the same AI group, only half of them were still doing anything afterwards. Using multiple AI groups definitely helps getting all units on the move. It’s luckily not that critical to put dozens of land units into the same group, unlike with air units where already about 5 in a single S&D (but not patrol) group puts the AI and much more the player to sleep.
The Aggression setting didn’t really affect idleness, but when too many units pick on and surround the same target, it surely can lead to blockages among AI units.

You can see on the second screenshot that all units in multiple groups were still busy assaulting the pitiful fortresses in the middle on turn 5, including the 1-hex crawling of the heavy towed guns without transport. Only few units didn’t find any room to maneuver anymore and got idle. This example shows S&D 20/50 in eight AI groups of 6-9 units, my preferred regiment sizes. My theory is also that in a single group, the AI picks once all suitable hexes for units to reach. Without enough hexes left, some units are dropped from actions.
For multiple groups, the situation is recalculated after each group what to do best that rather makes more units act somehow. I imagine that new retreated positions and under-strength of enemy units is better recalculated after each group. It takes more time to process but hopefully gives smarter results in the end.
Whatever, only the results matter: multiple > single groups.

Since my AI tests, I mainly use for land units Local Defense 0 for defense, S&D 0/50 for barely cheating mobile-units, and Defend Hex 0 with def-pos. for attack orders. Move to Hex is only used for disembarking and Exit the Map for the obvious reason. This plays much better than it sounds on modified vanilla maps.

Here's a little trick I use in all my scens to make sure most enemy units are spotted so that it might spur any lazy units to advance towards them.
I set an AI air patrol with a recce aircraft like this AI Storch in a Poland 1939 scen I'm working on, I've set several patrol points around the map so that it flies a continual zig-zag circuit, here it is after a zag at the tip of the arrow deep in enemy territory.
Of course if you're the human player you can manually fly air patrols yourself to make sure most enemy units are spotted and will hopefully spur your own lazy units into action..

Thanks all -- checked the number of units per AI team and it's 18 on one and 24 on another so I may have too many.

I tried the quick fix -- jacked the aggression up to 99 and the same few miscreants refuse budge.

I read the threads ref'd by PoorOldSpike, didn't see anything immediately but will re-read them.

So next step, I'll reduce the number of units per AI team and segregate infantry from armor.

I'll keep you posted -- thanks again!

conboy

conboy wrote: ↑Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:46 pm...I'll keep you posted --

Thanks mate we're all ears, and thanks for sending me the scen file, I'll get on it..
Meanwhile this couple of ideas might kickstart the lazies-
1- Give each lazy tank a big dollop of experience.
2- Place another two or three US flags along the front line as "bait" to tempt the lazies to go for them, preferably golden 'Primary' flags to make their eyes light up.

checked the number of units per AI team and it's 18 on one and 24 on another so I may have too many.

Whats the maximum allowed size for full functioning AI teams ???

All, in the process of converting all Armor units over to Armor AI teams, and all Infantry over to Infantry AI teams, I detected at least three PzKw IVs that were not assigned AI teams.

Good comrades, I do believe that was the major part of the problem, much to my embarrassment. I must note that there were no flags or towns on the routes, and that the supply was many hexes away.

I am sure that these careful checks unearthed the problem. I am astounded that after looking through all the units several times, I detected some that were not assigned AI teams. I think the reshuffling of AI teams fixed the rest, but I'm not sure.

So, to state the obvious lesson learned here: If the same units do not move on each replay, it is very likely that 1) the units have not been assigned to an AI team, or 2) their AI team has flakey orders, or 3) the Trigger activating the AI team is not working properly.

In my apologetic defense, it is difficult to troubleshoot units that appear due to a trigger condition. You can't poke them in the play mode to find out what AI team it's assigned to.

Thank you all, again, for your interest and time. I hope that I can eventually repay you all with a playable, interesting set of scenarios.

conboy

I don't think there's a maximum "allowed" number of units in a AI Team.
I'm pretty sure the absolute max is far more than the recommended max
There are a couple of guys here that are very good at creating small test scenarios and reporting the results.
Let's see if they can come up with more relevant info for scenario designers.
On the other hand, it would be nice if the devs could chime in with recommended guidelines.

Pressing the J-key definitely helps to get a better overview of the used AI teams. Team #1 should always be static defense or better local defense 0 by default. Every newly placed unit is normally assigned team #1 when placed on the map.
If you create battle groups with own AI team and keep those on the map together, mistakes can be quickly spotted, like shown on my modified map:
#1: Local Defense 0
#2: Seek & Destroy 0/50 as short-ranged mobile units by default that rather act on sight- and move-range instead of cheating x-ray sight. I’m still investigating how well this barely non-cheating behaviour works.
#3: as special AI group, like this tank brigade that is specifically ordered around the map by triggers. It starts as S&D 0/50 but is ordered by Defend Hex 0 with defensive positions around.
#12: only a special cargo truck team

Hi Conboy, I've been testing your scen file but have got nothing concrete to report yet, just the following bits and pieces-

1-I tried giving the Germans a huge points income and huge command points to see if that would give the AI "elbow room" to strut its stuff, but no, the 6 PzIV's dug in and refused to budge as before.
2- The way you've structured your triggers is a mystery to me (and possibly also to the AI),for example I can't find the PzIV's in there, so I presume you're using a "folders within folders needle-in-haystack" approach? I use a much simpler approach in my own scens to avoid confusing the AI. Suggestion: try to streamline your trigger structuring.
3- I never play campaigns, so if your scen is part of a campaign that might somehow be confusing the AI as well as me?
4- If there are other units in the Pz IV's team such as infantry etc, I'd suggest that you delete the panzers from the team completely and create a brand new team containing just the panzers. so that the AI will hopefully be able to get its teeth into them without being confused by any non-panzers in the team.
But whatever you implement, just keep sending me new versions to test if you like

Upload the scenario here and I take a look at it too. I have been busy modifying vanilla scenarios since weeks, so I still got somewhat routine.

Horst,
I fixed the problem by moving all the Armor to exclusively Armor AI Teams and same with Infantry. I found 3 Armor units with no AI team assigned, but that wasn't the whole problem. I'll PM you a link with the faulty scenario.

A new scenario developer could follow my basic questions around on this Topic and save themselves a lot of time on the first go-round.

thanks for the lessons, everyone!

conboy

Here some notes about your scenario by only looking in the editor, Bru-style:

#1: Initial German Defense: Defend Hex 3 without pos.
You haven’t even set a defended hex, so this is rather not working correctly. I highly recommend Local Defense 0 as default idle-behavior.

#2: German Static Defense: Static Defense
Static Defense is for the reason bad that units can be pushed around and won’t even bother to recapture flags/supply next to them. A very bad behaviour that should also be replaced by Local Defense 0.

#3: Air Harrasment: Air Seek & Destroy 999/50 with several target definitions
Generally, I wouldn’t put bombers and fighters into the same group as fighters usually suck versus heavily armoured units anyway.
Fighters should rather only pick soft targets, tactical bombers more or less all targets, while strategic bombers stick to structures, infantry (sometimes on settlements with supply to reduce), and the pesky artillery of course, besides vulnerable transports.
You also need to be careful with Air S&D, as more than 3 aircraft in the same group will unnecessarily slow down AI processing time. If you want many aircraft in the air then try using Air Patrol which works on (allied) sight and move-range along patrol routes.

#5: Aprilia Counterattack: S&D 20/75 with 17 units.
This still looks somewhat too many units in the same group, especially with all the many spawns later.
I highly recommend having a more or less historical organisation with units that you can easily put together into the same AI group.
This way, you also make sure that these units perform much better coordinated, especially if you add something like one towed at-gun and one inf-gun to each infantry regiment of like 3 inf-units (battalions). With such separated groups, you can also easily order each of them around the map if necessary.
Later, you can copy such divisional/regimental style into all scenarios you create and don’t have to worry that much about unit balance anymore.
It’s quite fun to make up such organisations with the game’s units and should speed-up scenario creation after a while.
I also started to play with my core units according to such organization levels what is less chaotic and less unfair compared to picking only the best stuff en masse. It’s in my opinion more enjoyable.

This is the possibly the best organization overview for all WW2 nations:
http://niehorster.org/000_admin/000oob.htm
I was never really the hardcore wargamer, but even I slowly learn all the symbols.


Triggers:
Cisterna Defense
I don’t understand these triggers there. You check for a single hex ownership by Team 1 which is the US-player and let a bunch of German units spawn right from start. Maybe your intention is to capture these hexes for Germans, so they receive later reinforcements or is a check-turn missing to bolster the German offensive if these hexes are still in allied posession?

Generally, don’t place and spawn towed units without transports! No single towed unit is ever organised in an army without transport, often horse-drawn for many armies at this time, no matter how well you can push around it. No transports are only plausible in a short-of-supply situation like a long-lasting encirclement or an end-war situation for the loser as desperate defenses.

Victory Criteria
You check for turn 33 but the scenario limit is only 30?
You also often check for specific non-flagged hexes. This is rather difficult for players to remember. I suggest you rather give all important places a flag and a name, even if it’s only Hill 123.

Rail Gun(s)
Reposition Units is an effect for randomizing unit positions on scenario start. This is not meant for teleporting units around, but hey, who knows that secret science is involved in a fictional scenario?
You can use simple Move to Hex for rail-units to change positions.

Air War
Two German aircraft spawns have no AI team set yet.