Slitherine

Hi

The new expansion looks great and I have purchased and been browsing the army lists.

Two quick questions......

1) Does the designation "Shieldwall" for HI Defensive(or Offensive) spearmen confer any special benefit ?

2) The Ghaznavids field a unit of the rather amazing "Naptha Bombers".....aside from the explosive graphics when they discharge their loads do they have any difference from light Javelins for example with regard to causing extra cohesion checks or indeed anything else ?

Many thanks

ian

devoncop wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2019 3:54 pm1) Does the designation "Shieldwall" for HI Defensive(or Offensive) spearmen confer any special benefit ?

No, it was essentially the same formation as a Hoplite phalanx. (The ludicrous testudo-like formation depicted in the TV version of the"The Last Kingdom", with men crouching down and poking swords and spears through tiny gaps between the shields, is emphatically not what a Dark Age shieldwall was like. Note that Bernard Cornwell described realistic shieldwalls in his books. The TV producers obviously had a rush of "Hollywood" to the brain).

2) The Ghaznavids field a unit of the rather amazing "Naptha Bombers".....aside from the explosive graphics when they discharge their loads do they have any difference from light Javelins for example with regard to causing extra cohesion checks or indeed anything else ?

They have better POAs against many opponents, and they cause the same -1 Cohesion Test modifier as artillery.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2019 6:26 pm

devoncop wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2019 3:54 pm1) Does the designation "Shieldwall" for HI Defensive(or Offensive) spearmen confer any special benefit ?

No, it was essentially the same formation as a Hoplite phalanx. (The ludicrous testudo-like formation depicted in the TV version of the"The Last Kingdom", with men crouching down and poking swords and spears through tiny gaps between the shields, is emphatically not what a Dark Age shieldwall was like. Note that Bernard Cornwell described realistic shieldwalls in his books. The TV producers obviously had a rush of "Hollywood" to the brain).

2) The Ghaznavids field a unit of the rather amazing "Naptha Bombers".....aside from the explosive graphics when they discharge their loads do they have any difference from light Javelins for example with regard to causing extra cohesion checks or indeed anything else ?

They have better POAs against many opponents, and they cause the same -1 Cohesion Test modifier as artillery.

Thanks Richard.

Imagine my shock to find that film makers are showing us inaccurate battle scenes

I like the Naptha bombers effect. Excellent.

I will add this here as I do not believe it deserves a new thread.
First of all congratulations for the excellent dlc.
I have one simple -not very important- note:
I believe the Fatimids had to have some Armenians units (mainly Masse Archers) or at least to be able to choose as allies the Armenians since from the Badr area Armenians played an important role in the armies of the Caliphate.
Again, well done Richard.

NikiforosFokas wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2019 7:07 pm I will add this here as I do not believe it deserves a new thread.
First of all congratulations for the excellent dlc.
I have one simple -not very important- note:
I believe the Fatimids had to have some Armenians units (mainly Masse Archers) or at least to be able to choose as allies the Armenians since from the Badr area Armenians played an important role in the armies of the Caliphate.
Again, well done Richard.

They did indeed have Armenian archers. As we do not have special models for Armenian archers they are represented as Massed Muslim Archers. (And they may have been from Islamized parts of Armenian anyway).

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2019 7:41 pm

NikiforosFokas wrote: ↑Thu May 30, 2019 7:07 pm I will add this here as I do not believe it deserves a new thread.
First of all congratulations for the excellent dlc.
I have one simple -not very important- note:
I believe the Fatimids had to have some Armenians units (mainly Masse Archers) or at least to be able to choose as allies the Armenians since from the Badr area Armenians played an important role in the armies of the Caliphate.
Again, well done Richard.

They did indeed have Armenian archers. As we do not have special models for Armenian archers they are represented as Massed Muslim Archers. (And they may have been from Islamized parts of Armenian anyway).

Nice, thanks !

A question regarding early muslim forces. It says from wikipedia on :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_ibn_al-Walid#Death

"In their mobility, Khalid's troops had no match until the Mongol hordes of the 13th century.[130] In fact the tactics of the desert Arabs and steppe Mongols were somewhat identical. Entire troops of Khalid would ride on camels while on march, whereas the Mongols used horses, with the difference that the Arabs did not make use of mounted archers.[131] His most commonly used maneuver was surprise attack, such as his night attacks from three different sides on Persian camps at Zumail, Muzayyah and Saniyy, his highly mobile army successfully maneuvering in a 100 km area, quickly destroying encampments of the Persians and their Arab allies. The Battle of Maraj-al-Debaj being no exception, where once again his highly mobile army maneuvered around a Byzantine army, appearing from four directions and opening several fronts at a time, a maneuver which later in 13th century became one of the Mongol armies' principal maneuvers".


Where are the camels?


"Khalid's elite light cavalry, the Mobile guard, acted as the core of the Muslim cavalry during the invasion of Syria. It was composed of highly trained and seasoned soldiers, the majority of whom had been under Khalid's standard during his Arabian and Persian campaigns.[136] Muslim cavalry was a light cavalry force armed with 5 meter long lances. They could charge at an incredible speed and would usually employ a common tactic of Kar wa far literary meaning "engage-disengage", or in modern term: “hit-and-run.” They would charge on enemy flanks and rear, their maneuverability making them very effective against heavily armored Byzantine and Sassanid cataphracts.[127] Khalid's famous flanking charge on the final day of the Battle of Yarmouk stands as testimony to just how well he understood the potentials and strengths of his mounted troops".

Where is the elite cavalry?

There are superior heavy spear formations but no elite formations or any cavalry that makes these forces special. It was essentialy the cav that did the work for the Rashidun Caliphate expansions
"

schmolywar wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:50 am A question regarding early muslim forces. It says from wikipedia on :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_ibn_al-Walid#Death

"In their mobility, Khalid's troops had no match until the Mongol hordes of the 13th century.[130] In fact the tactics of the desert Arabs and steppe Mongols were somewhat identical. Entire troops of Khalid would ride on camels while on march, whereas the Mongols used horses, with the difference that the Arabs did not make use of mounted archers.[131] His most commonly used maneuver was surprise attack, such as his night attacks from three different sides on Persian camps at Zumail, Muzayyah and Saniyy, his highly mobile army successfully maneuvering in a 100 km area, quickly destroying encampments of the Persians and their Arab allies. The Battle of Maraj-al-Debaj being no exception, where once again his highly mobile army maneuvered around a Byzantine army, appearing from four directions and opening several fronts at a time, a maneuver which later in 13th century became one of the Mongol armies' principal maneuvers".


Where are the camels?

The camels were only used on the march, the troops fought on foot. The camels were usually left well to the rear, not close enough for remounting. Hence the camels are not depicted in the battle.

"Khalid's elite light cavalry, the Mobile guard, acted as the core of the Muslim cavalry during the invasion of Syria. It was composed of highly trained and seasoned soldiers, the majority of whom had been under Khalid's standard during his Arabian and Persian campaigns.[136] Muslim cavalry was a light cavalry force armed with 5 meter long lances. They could charge at an incredible speed and would usually employ a common tactic of Kar wa far literary meaning "engage-disengage", or in modern term: “hit-and-run.” They would charge on enemy flanks and rear, their maneuverability making them very effective against heavily armored Byzantine and Sassanid cataphracts.[127] Khalid's famous flanking charge on the final day of the Battle of Yarmouk stands as testimony to just how well he understood the potentials and strengths of his mounted troops".

Where is the elite cavalry?

There are superior heavy spear formations but no elite formations or any cavalry that makes these forces special. It was essentially the cav that did the work for the Rashidun Caliphate expansions
"

Beware of wikipedia. Do not assume that a unit that is described as "elite" in a wikipedia article will necessarily qualify as "Elite" in game.

The cavalry were formed after 638 when a large number of captured horses became available. It seems unlikely that the troops, however enthusiastic, would immediately be transformed from camel-mounted infantry into elite cavalry. Hence the grading as Above Average for the bulk of the newly formed Jund cavalry in the game, with a smaller number rated as Armoured and Superior.

Having said that, we are open to making adjustments to army lists, but they need to be based on a balanced analysis of the sources and not on wikipedia articles, which are often written by enthusiasts who may overstate the case.

Noted.

What is the source for the superior muslim spear troops of the period?

schmolywar wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:54 pm Noted.

What is the source for the superior muslim spear troops of the period?

The Superior rating is based on their overwhelming success in the earlier years of the conquest (even before they got many horses).

The Spearmen rating is a judgement call, they could instead have been rated as Superior Warband as they used a mixture of weapons.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:54 am

schmolywar wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:54 pm Noted.

What is the source for the superior muslim spear troops of the period?

The Superior rating is based on their overwhelming success in the earlier years of the conquest (even before they got many horses).

The Spearmen rating is a judgement call, they could instead have been rated as Superior Warband as they used a mixture of weapons.

I am assuming this judgement call was made regarding Viking models as well. Although the Viking warriors were more like warbands and armed with various weapons, most would have been armed with spears. So, it makes sense to model them with spears.

MasterChief81 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:06 pm

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:54 am

schmolywar wrote: ↑Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:54 pm Noted.

What is the source for the superior muslim spear troops of the period?

The Superior rating is based on their overwhelming success in the earlier years of the conquest (even before they got many horses).

The Spearmen rating is a judgement call, they could instead have been rated as Superior Warband as they used a mixture of weapons.

I am assuming this judgement call was made regarding Viking models as well. Although the Viking warriors were more like warbands and armed with various weapons, most would have been armed with spears. So, it makes sense to model them with spears.

Yes.