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I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 2:51 pm
by Dux Limitis
@Pocus In the DasTactic's challenge 2's video,I saw he can't do this in export battle like the end of fog2's custom battle and epic battle(see these two pictures).In the export battle the game just said"The enemy has lost heart.You are victorious",then click on "ok",the battle will end,not like this.I think players has right to choice let the enemy go or not,and this way can totally destroyed their army,or most of them,we don't wanna start another battle because of half or several remain enemy units.
Re: I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 5:52 pm
by loki100
this is deliberate. When the game comes back to Empires, you then inflict retreat/rout losses in addition to the battle damage. So if you could play FoG2 to the end then it would be too high losses
Re: I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 4:22 am
by Dux Limitis
loki100 wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 5:52 pm
So if you could play FoG2 to the end then it would be too high losses
That's what I want,destroy the enemy's army at once in most of times,I think I should have that free and commander has right and power to make decision of let the enemy go or not.
Re: I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 6:11 am
by rbodleyscott
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 4:22 am
loki100 wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 5:52 pm
So if you could play FoG2 to the end then it would be too high losses
That's what I want,destroy the enemy's army at once in most of times,I think I should have that free and commander has right and power to make decision of let the enemy go or not.
Empires calculates the results of the pursuit automatically. It will not "let the enemy go". The FOG2 battle may end when the enemy reach 40% losses, but the Empires pursuit calculations after the battle results are imported will often wipe them out almost completely.
Re: I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 6:19 am
by MojoAmok
I love FOG 2, but the manual continuation of the battles after the "enemy has lost heart" prompt doesn't make any sense. 95+% of my FOG games have been in campaign mode which lacks this feature, but in the game modes that do allow it, the only reason the battle formally continues is that the enemy, in fact, does not behave as if they have "lost heart." Instead, the battle continues not because the player decides to "let the enemy go," but rather because the AI - in spite of all reason - is scripted to continue aggressively attacking instead of routing. If all the enemy units routed and you could try your best to attack them before they got off the board, that would look right, but as is, it just seems wrong to have the remnants of the enemy army launch suicidal charges. It doesn't really make sense to me, so an abstracted "this is how many blokes you killed in the pursuit phase" feature seems like an improvement.
I prefer the FOG 2 campaign mode where there is no "continue the battle against a suicidal AI" button and the post-battle casualties instead include the deserted/captured stats; these are heavily abstracted but are also intuitive and logical. Hopefully FOG:E pursuit works more or less like that (though we probably don't need to differentiate between dead, wounded, deserted or captured for gameplay purposes). If we get extra kills for having light troops and cavalry as was reported previously, I'm quite pleased with the implementation.
Re: I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 6:26 am
by devoncop
MojoAmok wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 6:19 am
I love FOG 2, but the manual continuation of the battles after the "enemy has lost heart" prompt doesn't make any sense. 95+% of my FOG games have been in campaign mode which lacks this feature, but in the game modes that do allow it, the only reason the battle formally continues is that the enemy, in fact, does not behave as if they have "lost heart." Instead, the battle continues not because the player decides to "let the enemy go," but rather because the AI - in spite of all reason - is scripted to continue aggressively attacking instead of routing. If all the enemy units routed and you could try your best to attack them before they got off the board, that would look right, but as is, it just seems wrong to have the remnants of the enemy army launch suicidal charges. It doesn't really make sense to me, so an abstracted "this is how many blokes you killed in the pursuit phase" feature seems like an improvement.
I prefer the FOG 2 campaign mode where there is no "continue the battle against a suicidal AI" button and the post-battle casualties instead include the deserted/captured stats; these are heavily abstracted but are also intuitive and logical. Hopefully FOG:E pursuit works more or less like that (though we probably don't need to differentiate between dead, wounded, deserted or captured for gameplay purposes). If we get extra kills for having light troops and cavalry as was reported previously, I'm quite pleased with the implementation.
Exactly so.
However satisfying some players may find totally wiping out an enemy army it was very rare historically, and generally only when surrounded and refusing to surrender.
As you say the Empires mechanic looks fine as does the auto battle win feature in FOG2 (without the decision to allow total destruction of a suicidal enemy).......the option is there in FOG2 for the occasional player who wants this.
Re: I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 6:31 am
by rbodleyscott
MojoAmok wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 6:19 am
I love FOG 2, but the manual continuation of the battles after the "enemy has lost heart" prompt doesn't make any sense. 95+% of my FOG games have been in campaign mode which lacks this feature, but in the game modes that do allow it, the only reason the battle formally continues is that the enemy, in fact, does not behave as if they have "lost heart." Instead, the battle continues not because the player decides to "let the enemy go," but rather because the AI - in spite of all reason - is scripted to continue aggressively attacking instead of routing. If all the enemy units routed and you could try your best to attack them before they got off the board, that would look right, but as is, it just seems wrong to have the remnants of the enemy army launch suicidal charges. It doesn't really make sense to me, so an abstracted "this is how many blokes you killed in the pursuit phase" feature seems like an improvement.
I prefer the FOG 2 campaign mode where there is no "continue the battle against a suicidal AI" button and the post-battle casualties instead include the deserted/captured stats; these are heavily abstracted but are also intuitive and logical. Hopefully FOG:E pursuit works more or less like that (though we probably don't need to differentiate between dead, wounded, deserted or captured for gameplay purposes). If we get extra kills for having light troops and cavalry as was reported previously, I'm quite pleased with the implementation.
The FOG2 "continue fighting" feature was not part of the original design, and is something that we added at the request of the publisher, for those who want it. As you say, it does not accurately represent a pursuit, which is why we don't allow it to be used in Campaign or FOG:Empires battles. Instead the results of the pursuit are calculated automatically. Depending on the composition of the opposing armies, the FOG: Empires automatic pursuit calculation is in fact often harsher than the one in FOG2, and the final losses from the defeated army are often much higher than reported in the FOG2 end of battle report.
devoncop wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 6:26 amAs you say the Empires mechanic looks fine as does the auto battle win feature in FOG2 (without the decision to allow total destruction of a suicidal enemy).......the option is there in FOG2 for the occasional player who wants this.
Precisely.
But to allow it for Campaign or FOG:Empires battles would be doubling up the effects of pursuit as both FOG Campaigns and FOG Empires deal with the results of the pursuit automatically.
Re: I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 10:16 am
by Dux Limitis
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 6:11 am
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 4:22 am
loki100 wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2019 5:52 pm
So if you could play FoG2 to the end then it would be too high losses
That's what I want,destroy the enemy's army at once in most of times,I think I should have that free and commander has right and power to make decision of let the enemy go or not.
Empires calculates the results of the pursuit automatically. It will not "let the enemy go". The FOG2 battle may end when the enemy reach 40% losses, but the Empires pursuit calculations after the battle results are imported will often wipe them out almost completely.
You means,that is automatically in the Empire?Thanks,I know that now.
Re: I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 1:52 pm
by Tamas
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 10:16 am
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 6:11 am
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 4:22 am
That's what I want,destroy the enemy's army at once in most of times,I think I should have that free and commander has right and power to make decision of let the enemy go or not.
Empires calculates the results of the pursuit automatically. It will not "let the enemy go". The FOG2 battle may end when the enemy reach 40% losses, but the Empires pursuit calculations after the battle results are imported will often wipe them out almost completely.
You means,that is automatically in the Empire?Thanks,I know that now.
Yes. Quite often you will see significant (even the majority) of losses for the losing side in the Pursuit phase instead of the actual battle (true for both Empires and FOG2 battles).
Re: I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 3:27 pm
by MojoAmok
Cheers, devoncorp and rbodleyscott
The origin of those battle-continuations makes more sense now knowing that they were a publisher inclusion as I can't think of anything else in FOG 2 that I would consider counter-intuitive. It is what it is and we can always just let the battle end normally in FOG 2 if we don't like it.
Anyway, sounds like the pursuit in FOG:E will be nice and I'm glad to hear that there are more casualties in the pursuit phase than during the battle.
Thanks
Re: I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 6:58 am
by Dux Limitis
Tamas wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 1:52 pm
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 10:16 am
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 6:11 am
Empires calculates the results of the pursuit automatically. It will not "let the enemy go". The FOG2 battle may end when the enemy reach 40% losses, but the Empires pursuit calculations after the battle results are imported will often wipe them out almost completely.
You means,that is automatically in the Empire?Thanks,I know that now.
Yes. Quite often you will see significant (even the majority) of losses for the losing side in the Pursuit phase instead of the actual battle (true for both Empires and FOG2 battles).
Thanks,another thing I wanna ask,could the game add an active retreat function（If the situation allow the army to retreat）like the total war?Or the game is already have?
Re: I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 6:56 am
by rbodleyscott
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 6:58 am
Tamas wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 1:52 pm
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 10:16 am
You means,that is automatically in the Empire?Thanks,I know that now.
Yes. Quite often you will see significant (even the majority) of losses for the losing side in the Pursuit phase instead of the actual battle (true for both Empires and FOG2 battles).
Thanks,another thing I wanna ask,could the game add an active retreat function（If the situation allow the army to retreat）like the total war?Or the game is already have?
The FOG2 retreat function is disabled for Empires battles, because otherwise it is possible to escape a battle with no losses by exporting to FOG2 and then immediately hitting retreat. This would be an exploit.
If Empires allowed a retreat to be attempted prior to the battle, it should be done at the Empires end. There are few if any historical examples of an Ancient army successfully retreating in good order once battle had actually been joined.
Re: I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 4:31 pm
by Dux Limitis
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2019 6:56 am
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 6:58 am
Tamas wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2019 1:52 pm
Yes. Quite often you will see significant (even the majority) of losses for the losing side in the Pursuit phase instead of the actual battle (true for both Empires and FOG2 battles).
Thanks,another thing I wanna ask,could the game add an active retreat function（If the situation allow the army to retreat）like the total war?Or the game is already have?
The FOG2 retreat function is disabled for Empires battles, because otherwise it is possible to escape a battle with no losses by exporting to FOG2 and then immediately hitting retreat. This would be an exploit.
If Empires allowed a retreat to be attempted prior to the battle, it should be done at the Empires end. There are few if any historical examples of an Ancient army successfully retreating in good order once battle had actually been joined.
I think there's a rearguard defence scenario in the FOG2,could this be able to use in the empire when player order to retreat(assume the retreat function is not disabled)?Let the players to choose or random choose some units as rearguard forces.(the game can set the least and maximum rearguard units number,depends on the size of the army).That might be more reasonable.
Re: I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 4:34 pm
by rbodleyscott
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2019 4:31 pm
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2019 6:56 am
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2019 6:58 am
Thanks,another thing I wanna ask,could the game add an active retreat function（If the situation allow the army to retreat）like the total war?Or the game is already have?
The FOG2 retreat function is disabled for Empires battles, because otherwise it is possible to escape a battle with no losses by exporting to FOG2 and then immediately hitting retreat. This would be an exploit.
If Empires allowed a retreat to be attempted prior to the battle, it should be done at the Empires end. There are few if any historical examples of an Ancient army successfully retreating in good order once battle had actually been joined.
I think there's a rearguard defence scenario in the FOG2,could this be able to use in the empire when player order to retreat(assume the retreat function is not disabled)?Let the players to choose or random choose some units as rearguard forces.(the game can set the least and maximum rearguard units number,depends on the size of the army).That might be more reasonable.
That is an interesting idea.
Re: I saw the challenge 2's export,still can't continue the battle when win it in FOG2
Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 2:16 am
by Dux Limitis
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2019 4:34 pm
Dux Limitis wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2019 4:31 pm
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Wed May 29, 2019 6:56 am
The FOG2 retreat function is disabled for Empires battles, because otherwise it is possible to escape a battle with no losses by exporting to FOG2 and then immediately hitting retreat. This would be an exploit.
If Empires allowed a retreat to be attempted prior to the battle, it should be done at the Empires end. There are few if any historical examples of an Ancient army successfully retreating in good order once battle had actually been joined.
I think there's a rearguard defence scenario in the FOG2,could this be able to use in the empire when player order to retreat(assume the retreat function is not disabled)?Let the players to choose or random choose some units as rearguard forces.(the game can set the least and maximum rearguard units number,depends on the size of the army).That might be more reasonable.
That is an interesting idea.
Thanks,I hope this able to be used,that's really'll make the battle function more reasonable and let players have more choices.