Slitherine

Having just been thrashed in just about every encountered I've had in the DL as Spartans one thing has been on my mind.

These guys were known for their 'never retreat/never surrender' ethos. At least until post Sphacteria. And, its what you would expect from people trained their entire lives as warriors - indoctrinated and brain washed - they dodn't know how to run away.

In game, they seem to autobreak relatively early considering all this. Is any consideration given to really reducing the autobreak levels for such armies to essentially 0 - or is this just me talking like Livey? And did spartans just run away like any other troops in reality?

Cheers

General Shapur wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:11 am Having just been thrashed in just about every encountered I've had in the DL as Spartans one thing has been on my mind.

These guys were known for their 'never retreat/never surrender' ethos. At least until post Sphacteria. And, its what you would expect from people trained their entire lives as warriors - indoctrinated and brain washed - they dodn't know how to run away.

In game, they seem to autobreak relatively early considering all this. Is any consideration given to really reducing the autobreak levels for such armies to essentially 0 - or is this just me talking like Livey? And did spartans just run away like any other troops in reality?

Cheers

We don't believe in magic Spartans.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:28 am

General Shapur wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:11 am Having just been thrashed in just about every encountered I've had in the DL as Spartans one thing has been on my mind.

These guys were known for their 'never retreat/never surrender' ethos. At least until post Sphacteria. And, its what you would expect from people trained their entire lives as warriors - indoctrinated and brain washed - they dodn't know how to run away.

In game, they seem to autobreak relatively early considering all this. Is any consideration given to really reducing the autobreak levels for such armies to essentially 0 - or is this just me talking like Livey? And did spartans just run away like any other troops in reality?

Cheers

We don't believe in magic Spartans.

I could only find one historical reference to them retreating - Sphacteria; hence the question. Magic Spartans - hmm, OK then.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:28 am We don't believe in magic Spartans.

You do know that every time you say that - somewhere in the game a little magic Spartan squeaks and dies?

I do believe in magic Spartans
I do believe in magic Spartans

ianiow wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:46 am

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:28 am We don't believe in magic Spartans.

You do know that every time you say that - somewhere in the game a little magic Spartan squeaks and dies?

I do believe in magic Spartans
I do believe in magic Spartans

I want to believe

Oh gosh, here we go...

So this conversation has been had in the past. So for one, thing, recorded instances of Spartan retreats - Sphacteria, Lechaeum, Tegyra, Leuctra, Mantinea. I suppose for some of the set piece battles you could argue that the Spartans withdrew, and not fled, but they did not stay to die. There is a single recorded instance of a Spartan last stand - Thermopylae, at which they were a minority of the surrounded force that was wiped out. Setting aside the huge problems in the Thermopylae story that has come down to us, and the tantalizing hints that it could be all propaganda covering for a terrible Greek defeat, and setting aside the probably legendary Battle of the Champions -

The Spartans were not in fact superhuman warriors indoctrinated and brainwashed to be soldiers. Sparta didn't have an army. It has a militia, same as other city states. There is no evidence of collective arms drill for its citizens. The Spartans were distinguished in their physical fitness, high number of officers (ie, more than one per hundreds of men), and resulting ability to do BASIC drill, which was more than other hoplite forces could do on the battlefield until the 4th century. This made them the best army in Classical Greece, but the idea of badasses who never ran away and were killing machines is a product of propaganda, both from the Spartans themselves and from later Hellenistic and especially Roman authors pining for the magical "good old days." The Spartan system existed to try to maintain equality among the citizenry (which it failed to do), not make robots.

There are some things to consider when it comes to Spartans' unbreakable reputation. One factor might be Spartans simply not losing that much which could explain why there are few examples of them retreating or surrendering.

The Greek phalanx-vs-phalanx warfare wasn't particularly deadly with the losing phalanx usually breaking as soon as its formation started budging with the total losses usually less than 20% for the loser and as little as 2% for the winner (According to Brian Todd Carey in Warfare in the Ancient World). I can't quickly think other battles than Thermopylae where Spartans would have fought to the last man and even there it wasn't really avoidable after they were surrounded and didn't surrender. Furthermore the Thermopylae might be the origin of the 'no retreat, no surrender' -reputation rather than an average example of it. The saying "Come back with your shield or on it" doesn't necessarily mean win or die but not to surrender unconditionally or throw down one's shield when fleeing (which was considered cowardice).

In FoG2 I think the auto-break limits are very generous for most units with the total amount of losses being closer what they might be after the battles is decided and the loser chased off the field than what they probably would be at breaking point. Maybe there could be some special attribute that makes cornered routed units enter some ineffective last stand melee rather than disband but I think it would have very little practical effect on the gameplay.

It is actually really hard to morale break Spartans with contemporary opponents. Being Superior and Heavy Foot, they get a +1 modifier to their die roll and they get to reroll 1s. You really gotta pelt them with missiles or flank them while they are already in combat to get an auto morale drop or you are stuck in a long grind most of the time.

It is a different story once you get extra modifiers like Impact Foot or Elephants but those typically are not contemporary units.

I think the issue is one that led to their eventual demise. Its just a heavy foot army with really no combined arms capability. Historically against the Athenians at Corinth after the Iphicratean reforms the Spartans were locked into a cycle of chase-loss-retreat against the Athenian light infantry. I had the same result against a peltast army. So, it plays according to what one would expect. Perhaps as part of an army Spartans do what they do best - but as an army by themselves, they are just outclassed by more creative use of men.

I've seen superior heavy infantry with a general do some pretty ridiculous things. You stack the combat and cohesion check bonuses, and flanked Veteran pikes can send lesser medium attackers running with some decent rolls. For me, at least, it always happens at the least convenient times (battle clearly lost as opposed to when the same thing would win the battle), but such is FOG it seems.

In a way, maybe the question is: can the obvious weakness points of the Spartan roster be mitigated by certain tactics or strategies?