Slitherine

What are they good for? Anyone know?

I know they are cheaper than Bw/Sw light horse, but they are much worse being one POA up at impact but one POA down in all subsequent rounds of combat - which pretty much cancels out the effect of disruption on the Bw/Sw boys (even if the javelin chaps are lucky enough to achieve it).

Their much shorter shooting range also means they have to get into "in real danger if you try to evade" territory to shoot anyone on horseback - whereas Bw LH can shoot cavalry with total impunity, and other LH with 1-in-36 safety - and their "one POA up at impact only" isn't even decisively good against Bw-only LH???

Do they have any other tactical function other than "I want some LH but my chosen list unfortunately doesn't allow me to field any more with Bw or Bw/Sw" ?

Never mind "can they duff up Roman horse?" -I can't see how Hannibal ever though the legendary Numidian mercenaries could be expect to drive off any sort of mounted opponents whatsoever!!

I quite like light spear light horse. Granted compared to bow sword light horse they aren't that good value. Of course protected light spear light horse are a different issue

Against Roman cavalry the trick would seem to be to get near them and lob some javelins, then dodge out of the way. Eventually you will disrupt the Romans then they may well fail to charge and thing unravel really fast. They will certainly keep the Roman cavalry busy if nothing else.

I find them good vs Bw - - LH but obsviously a bit scared of Bw- Sw Saka types.

Where Bw LH work best in 4s IMHO, I find if you have a decent number the Numidians work well in 6s.

I think it is a troop types whose real value varies more with what they are up against than most.

Si

madaxeman wrote:Never mind "can they duff up Roman horse?" -I can't see how Hannibal ever though the legendary Numidian mercenaries could be expect to drive off any sort of mounted opponents whatsoever!!

Numidian cavalry were classic skirmishers, and were never used to "drive off" enemy horse. At Cannae, Hannibal deployed them against the Roman cavalry so that they could use hit-and-run tactics to keep the equites busy long enough for his Spanish and Gallic horsemen to defeat the Latin allied cavalry on the opposite flank, and then fall on the rear of the Roman legions.

If you employ them in their historical role as hit-and-run skirmishers, I think you will find Numidian cavalry to be quite effective.

Cheers,
Scott

In period they shouldn't meet a lot of Bw/Sw types (or maybe none at all), just plain Bw LH which they outclass in a 1vs1 matchup. As usual using stuff out of period creates less than optimal troop types, vide cataphracts.

carlos wrote:In period they shouldn't meet a lot of Bw/Sw types (or maybe none at all), just plain Bw LH which they outclass in a 1vs1 matchup. As usual using stuff out of period creates less than optimal troop types, vide cataphracts.

In the RoR book all Scythian LH are Bw/Sw, and most hellenistic armies tend to get a few of them - and so are all the Bosporan LH.

I really dont see that a +1 at impact is that big a deal compared to the LH Bw's extra shooting range. In a typical 4 dice vs 4 dice combat, being at +1 feels unlikley to deliver you the magic "2 more hits than the enemy" at impact.

madaxeman wrote:

carlos wrote:In period they shouldn't meet a lot of Bw/Sw types (or maybe none at all), just plain Bw LH which they outclass in a 1vs1 matchup. As usual using stuff out of period creates less than optimal troop types, vide cataphracts.

In the RoR book all Scythian LH are Bw/Sw, and most hellenistic armies tend to get a few of them - and so are all the Bosporan LH.

I really dont see that a +1 at impact is that big a deal compared to the LH Bw's extra shooting range. In a typical 4 dice vs 4 dice combat, being at +1 feels unlikley to deliver you the magic "2 more hits than the enemy" at impact.

Actually it is more likely than you might think.

4 average dice at + vs 4 average dice at - gives a 27.78% chance of the + side winning by 2 compared to a 5.79% chance of the - side managing it.

Overall there is a 55.56% chance of a win for the light spear vs a 19.68% chance of a win for the bow.

As for Skythians the Numidians didn't actually fight any of them so it is difficult to draw conclusions.

In 6s they are pretty nasty against Bw/sw types unless you're facing lots of them. If you can get 6 jav LH against 4 bow/sw LH, you can put in a general in at impact without too much of a risk of him getting killed. It also makes it more likely you are going to win and maybe even kill off an enemy base. Being down a POA in melee isn't much of a problem then.

Having played with Huns at two competitions I've lost virtually all my head-on clashes with BGs of 4 superior LH bw/sw. In all cases it was against BGs of 6 average LH, some jav, some plain bow and some bow/sw. I admit to a bit of bad luck but numbers can make up for quality and POA advantages. Losing impact, the cohesion test and a base leaves you with two dice in melee which is not good even when superior and a POA up.

I think the key thing about LH jav is that you need to be aggresive and preferably have some cavalry or MF in support to help your opponent decide an evade is better than fighting it out.

Julian

hammy wrote:
As for Skythians the Numidians didn't actually fight any of them so it is difficult to draw conclusions.

The dearth of JLS type horseboys on the steppe suggests that they were not even up to being second class citizens. Even the Byzantines only gave javelins to riders who weren't up to using abow ...

So basically they should be worse.

IMO you need to use them in 6's if you feel that you're going to meet a lot of horse archer LH types.

Anyway look on the brigt side they could be Lancer LH ...

look on the bright side - LRR is only allowed 8, so ideal for 6's...!

madaxeman wrote:look on the bright side - LRR is only allowed 8, so ideal for 6's...!

Take a Numidian ally with those nifty 4 bases BGs of LF to boost army size and one or two BGs of 6 LH. It's still the Romans who are going to win the battle but you are more likely to get them where you want them. It also gives the compulsory cavalry something useful to do (ie support the LH).

Julian

Use them to draw enemy into an ambush. I broke a BG of Ottoman armored Sup Bow/sword cav by luring them into a gap between a vineyard and a plantation with LF archers and LF handgunners on either side. Too bad they routed away and were able to rally before I could finish them off. Sometimes the best you can hope for is using them to draw enemy forces away from your main push.

Personally, I suspect that some of the Numidians should be Cavalry Jav LS, rather than LH, but what do I know...

They're really good at falling back slowly and stopping second moves - cheap and equally effective as other LH.

A fairer comparison points wiase would be 6 Numidians vs 4 Bw/Sword LH. Seems to me the Numidians would have the edge. Or, say 3x4 jav units vs 2 Bw/Sword.

Also, they're good charging with heavier mounted against stuff that might evade.

It was a big step forward for me when I traded the Bw LH in my early persians for javelin LH.

I agree with Graham - the same number of points of JLS Light Horse should easily beat Bow Sw Light Horse in Melee. And being Light Horse, the Bow will only get one turn of unopposed shooting first.
And using missile fire against other opponents, the fact that they have a shorter range is not too much of a handicap. It just means they have to get closer, but as they are unlikely to get caught when charged this isn't too much of a problem.
And the Light Spear means they are better at riding down foot skimishers, even in rough terrain.

Polkovnik wrote:I agree with Graham - the same number of points of JLS Light Horse should easily beat Bow Sw Light Horse in Melee. And being Light Horse, the Bow will only get one turn of unopposed shooting first.
And using missile fire against other opponents, the fact that they have a shorter range is not too much of a handicap. It just means they have to get closer, but as they are unlikely to get caught when charged this isn't too much of a problem.
And the Light Spear means they are better at riding down foot skimishers, even in rough terrain.

Taking into account points values maybe, but I dont see how the shorter range is no handicap. Shooting at 2 inches means they can get caught by cavalry, whereas LH Bw shoot at 4 and can never be caught by them if the do so.

All LH are massively better than LF in combat, as they get 2 dice to 1. However Light spear is only an advantage at impact, but sword is an advantage in all subsequent rounds of melee.

madaxeman wrote:

Polkovnik wrote:I agree with Graham - the same number of points of JLS Light Horse should easily beat Bow Sw Light Horse in Melee. And being Light Horse, the Bow will only get one turn of unopposed shooting first.
And using missile fire against other opponents, the fact that they have a shorter range is not too much of a handicap. It just means they have to get closer, but as they are unlikely to get caught when charged this isn't too much of a problem.
And the Light Spear means they are better at riding down foot skimishers, even in rough terrain.

Taking into account points values maybe, but I dont see how the shorter range is no handicap. Shooting at 2 inches means they can get caught by cavalry, whereas LH Bw shoot at 4 and can never be caught by them if the do so.

All LH are massively better than LF in combat, as they get 2 dice to 1. However Light spear is only an advantage at impact, but sword is an advantage in all subsequent rounds of melee.

There you have it. Don't shoot with them. Field them as BGs of six and charge the cowardly bowmen with a TC. The table soon runs out and it halves their shooting.

Julian

Classical Moors aren't the only Jav Lt Spear LH. Equites Illyricani have to deal with Huns and Berber light horse have to deal with Turks. Given that the Romans were badly inconvenienced by the Huns and the Berbers lost the 1070s Fatimid civil wars I don't think the results are too far out of whack, although the points cost might be.

although the points cost might be

But they don't just fight/skirmish LH. They are worth just as much as Bow/Lt Sp/Sw Light Horse when skirmishing Roman Legions.

philqw78 wrote:

although the points cost might be

But they don't just fight/skirmish LH. They are worth just as much as Bow/Lt Sp/Sw Light Horse when skirmishing Roman Legions.

Sorry if I gave the impression that I thought the points were wrong. I was trying to imply that I had no idea whether it was right or wrong.