Slitherine

From reading over the comments on various other threads, of the available Byzantine lists, the Komnenan list is the best for competition and anachronistic match ups. If I am incorrect, please direct me where to go and let me know why..

Anyway, here is my attempt at a balanced list for 750pts.

FC
TCX2
Byzantine Cavalry (6) - Knights/Arm/Av/Dr/Lancer,Sword
Latinikon (4) - Knights/HArm/Sup/Dr/Lancer,Sword
Latinikon (4) - Knights/HArm/Sup/Dr/Lancer,Sword
Turkopouloi (6) - Cav/Pro/Av/UnDr/Bow,Sword
Turkopouloi (4) - LH/UnPro/Av/UnDr/Bow,Sword
Turkopouloi (4) - LH/UnPro/Av/UnDr/Bow,Sword
Varangian Guard (6) - HF/HArm/Sup/Dr/HvWeap
Byzantine Archers (6) - LF/UnPro/Av/Dr/Bow
Byzantine Archers (6) - MF/UnPro/Av/Dr/Bow
Byzantine Spearmen (6) - HF/Pro/Av/Dr/DefSpear


I got 750pts on the nose. If I need to loose anything, probably the Cav Turkopouloi? Seemed like a good mix of troops. The lack of MF other than the archers will hurt me in terrain I think, but I am trying for fairly open terrain to allow my horses to maneuver. I would like to think I can hold a decent line with the spears and bows, with the Varangians there to back them up.

What is the difference between Skythikon, Turkopoloi, or Vardariots? Just the different cultures assimilated by the Empire at that period?

Anyway, how does it look?

Haven't got my list book with me but,

Drop the MF Bow. What purpose do they have other than to attract enemy MF in greater numbers. With this army let the enemy have the terrain. His MF will sit in there hiding whilst you destroy the rest of his army. Don't give him something to kill whilst hiding.
Drop the spearmen if possible. The only troops they can work effectively with is the varangians. But I would drop them as well, unless you just need an impassable terrain piece, nobody in their right mind is going to fight them.
Try to get 3x4 drilled Hvy Kn and 2x4 Byz Kn to support*. If not go for PLC Byz, the cavalry is cheaper for support.
Your killer troops in this army are the Hvy Kn and the rest of the army must facilitate their delivery. The LH aren't bad against lesser LH and LF either, so you could use the Armd Kn/Cv to support them.


*Physical rather than morale.

Turcopoles in 4s, not 6s, to enable them to expand easily for skirmish duty.

Agree on the MF being a target. As phil indicates, this can be an all mounted army of knights escorted and screened to target by other mounted.

Spearmen are nice blockers but a lone BG is vulnerable to being double-teamed if alone and may slow you down if you wait for it.

If I took Varangians, I'd take 4 or 2x4, not 6. If Superior, 6s autobreak at 2 and 4s at 1, and I'd rather have two of them to threaten with with than a block of 8. The problem is that anything that pricey you need to get into the fight, and the enemy might not cooperate.

My intent in bringing the foot troops was because I was under the impression that shooting the heck out of a target before you charge in was a good idea. But, I can see how with heavy foot if they dont want to engage, they wont.

Loosing the infantry and the two Cav Turkopouloi will free up 184pts.

Thats enough to change it to:

(Edit - The first list should of had the Byz Cav at 4, not 6)

FC
TCX2
Byzantine Cavalry (4) - Knights/Arm/Av/Dr/Lancer,Sword
Byzantine Cavalry (4) - Knights/Arm/Av/Dr/Lancer,Sword
Latinikon (4) - Knights/HArm/Sup/Dr/Lancer,Sword
Latinikon (4) - Knights/HArm/Sup/Dr/Lancer,Sword
Latinikon (4) - Knights/HArm/Sup/Dr/Lancer,Sword
Turkopouloi (4) - Cav/Pro/Av/UnDr/Bow,Sword
Turkopouloi (4) - LH/UnPro/Av/UnDr/Bow,Sword
Turkopouloi (4) - LH/UnPro/Av/UnDr/Bow,Sword

8pts left over, which I could use to buy:
Byzantine Javelinmen (4) - LF/UnPro/Poor/Dr/Jav,LightSpear

But, I think buying them would trip the clause that means I have to take my archers, so will probably just leave them out.

All mounted lists make me somewhat nervous. How well do they play? I thought you needed escorts or screens for your knights, in the form of a bunch of foot troops?

I think you've overlooked 6 compulsory bowmen who may be LF or MF

At the Gisclair last month, I fought against a Byzantine that was (IIRC)
4 Armoured Knights
3x4 Latinikon HAK
2x6 poor LF bow
6x6 LH bow
4 TF generals

This was pretty scary, as he could screen and deliver his knights wherever he wanted - I was fortunate enough to beat him only by some disgusting dice rolling (including killing a general that doomed 3 LH units to rapid breakage )

firefalluk wrote:I think you've overlooked 6 compulsory bowmen who may be LF or MF

At the Gisclair last month, I fought against a Byzantine that was (IIRC)
4 Armoured Knights
3x4 Latinikon HAK
2x6 poor LF bow
6x6 LH bow
4 TF generals

This was pretty scary, as he could screen and deliver his knights wherever he wanted - I was fortunate enough to beat him only by some disgusting dice rolling (including killing a general that doomed 3 LH units to rapid breakage )

The compulsory bowmen are only compulsory if you take any foot. If its all mounted, bows are not required.

The screening of knights is where I am a bit confused. I get it with foot, a nice wide line of LF to keep the enemy back and to prevent them from shooting. Then, before you charge, you turn around and run through your own unit with them. I have been unable to find a similar tactic with LH and Kn/Cav. Unless I missed something, they cant ride through their own units. So how do you screen with them?

I am still kinda new at this.

Thanks!

Name___Type_Armour_Quality_____Trg___Missile_Imp_Melee_No_each_Total

Skythikon LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - Swordmen - 4 10 40
Skythikon LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - Swordmen - 4 10 40
Skythikon LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - Swordmen - 4 10 40
Skythikon LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - Swordmen - 4 10 40
Archers LF Unprotected Average Drilled Bow - - - 6 5 30
Archers LF Unprotected Average Drilled Bow - - - 6 5 30
javelinmen LF Unprotected Average Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4 4 16
Byzantine Cavalry Kn Armoured Average Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4 18 72
Byzantine Cavalry Kn Armoured Average Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4 18 72
Frankish Knights Kn Heavily armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4 26 104
Frankish Knights Kn Heavily armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4 26 104
Frankish Knights Kn Heavily armoured Superior Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 4 26 104
Sub Generals TC - - - - - - - 2 35 70
CinC TC - - - - - - CinC 1 35 35

This is what I get for 800pts, IIRC its legal but I don't have my book to make certain. The Knights have to get their flanks protected by the Byz cav, and use the skirmish troops to delay and keep everyone else out of the way. So poor PBI is not a bad thing

how do you screen with them?

Put them in front if LF, they can run straight back through your Kn as if they weren't there. If LH leave a base wide gap between each BG. If the LH have to evade they can drop an element to get through. However if the enemy dont want to charge them they are stuck there until rout. Then will rout and drop a base still not disrupting your Kn. Whatever happens with whichever troops you use if there are shooters to front who do not charge your screen you will get shot twice. As you have to move them out of the way in your turn, he then shoots and shoots again in his. Just as easy to let him move up in his turn, let him shoot you once, then charge in yours.
Unless he is not too clever and charges them away.
The thing is you have regular knights so you can get them into position by manouver more easily

Not sure what list the Frankish Knights come from, but why take them when I can take Latinikon which look to be exactly the same?

So, with the screening, leave a gap, I get that.. so, I shouldnt have a LH Screen, as they will have to move so my knights can charge, and so I will end up getting shot more? Then why does everyone say to take LH to screen your knights?

Frankish, Latin, whats in a name. I haven't got my book here. Just butcherd my PLCB list. Anyway even if you screen with LF as I said above the LF still have to move out of the way in your move. So you will get shot twice. Due to the way the game works shooters will always get a shot, except lancer cav who may charge before they can be bothered to shoot. Unless you can get the shooter to charge your screen. If you want your screen to be there even when you charge take undrilled Kn and keep your generals out of the way and they may charge through your screen of their own accord. But you can't count on that. And if it does happen you will probably not get a solid mass of Kn going in.
Take LH to screen your flanks and pin the enemy back

Ahh.. didnt even catch the name until now.

Ok, so with LH I will want to keep them on the flank rather than screening ahead of the main body of knights? I am going to try running the no foot list suggested above, but the last time I played a game with cavalry (Tatar) I really had no idea what to do. It felt like a list where I just had to keep away from my opponent while shooting him to death (which, as I recall, was the way they did it). I thought the Byzantines of this period worked in a similar fashion, move up, shoot, fall back, wait for an opening, then charge.

If you have lots of time and an endless table you can just rely on shooting. Unfortunately the pubs have to open so wargamers have to leave at some point.

Using a mounted only army takes more practice. Things move so much faster, so when you move into the wrong position you have done it in one move instead of 2, d'oh, but conversly it takes half the time to get into a good position and your opponent may not see it coming.

Also push one unit of LH in front of your Kn to give yourself room to move and deprive your enemy of the same. It will be much easier to get out of the way than 2.

Thanks for the help. Still not sure about the lack of foot, but I will give the all-mounted list a try.

If you left a 2 base+ wide gap between Knight BGs and lined thiings up right there would be room to charge past the LH to contact. You could then fill in the resulting gap after impact and prior to melee by feeding from the rear rank. Just set up with 2 rather than 1 Knight in the rear rank of each of those neighboring BGs. If the enemy charge first, the LH evade back and chargers can't shoot. If the enemy move in close without charging the LH retire and make room.

Cheers,

Mike

Go all (nearly) mounted. Next time I run my Teutonic Knights I'm dropping the HF spear and MF crossbow. I'll just keep two units of LF bow/gun and the rest will be mounted. If you only have one or two units of MF/HF they don't really have anything to do. They aren't strong enough by themselves.

Hep

So, I am playing around with the numbers, looking at what I may need to buy to make a decent sized army, and started re-checking the numbers.

LF move the same as Cav, and faster than Knights. LF can also move through them. Now, Knights cant move through LF freely (which is unfortunate), but Cav can. Does this mean that I could charge through LF with Cav? I dont think so, but I am getting confused reading and re-reading the rules on it.

Looking to take advantage of the sale at Old Glory this month, so figured I might as well buy the infantry, even if I rarely use it. It seems (to me) to make more sense to use my archers as LF rather than MF (as was pointed out, MF archers without other MF troops wont do too much, especially if charged). I can then use them to screen ahead of the knights, with no worry of having to leave gaps like I will for LH. Will still bring the LH, but probably for the flanks?

Also brings to mind the next question... pre 1150 or post 1150? Pre 1150 has the Byz Cav as Cav, not Knights. It also limits the Knights to Armored (rather than heavily armored). I think post-1150 works better (I like the idea of heavily armored knights), but if Cav can charge through LF (not sure if they can) it might be worth considering taking them as Cav instead?


Just thinking about options now, but wanted to get some feedback. So far everything has been extremely helpful. I am hoping that this list can be competative, not that I really want to enter tournaments, but I am going to have enough trouble if I do.. I dont want my army to further add to that. Reading other threads makes me less than optimistic about my Principate Romans and their chances of success in an anachronistic competition setting, but I still like them. Have wanted to play Byzantines since I picked up FoG, and would like whatever Byzantine list I do go with to be worth taking to tournaments.

Based on above suggestions, here are two lists I have come up with for the 750pt level that the group will probably be playing:

All Mounted:
FC, 2xTC
2xByz Cav (4) - Kn/Arm/Av/Dr
3xLatinikon (4) - Kn/HvArm/Sup/Dr
4xTurkopouloi (4) - LH/Un/Av/UnDr

I think this will rely on good terrain placement by me. As suggested, leave gaps in the Latinikon and Byz Cav for the Turks to fall back through, and try to just hammer my way through opponents. Not sure what else to do with an all mounted list made up of knights.


Mixed:
FC, 2xTC
Byz Cav (4) - Kn/Arm/Av/Dr
3xLatinikon (4) - Kn/HvArm/Sup/Dr
4xTurkopouloi (4) - LH/Un/Av/UnDr
2xByzantine Archers (6) - LF/Un/Av/Dr
1xByzantine Javelinmen (4) - LF/Un/Av/Dr

I must say that I feel alot more confident in this list than the all mounted. Dropping a unit of Byzantine Cavalry gave me enough points to pick up two units of LF archers and one unit of LF Javelins. I will just run a line of them in front of my knights and then fall back when its time to charge.


Comments?

Random thoughts:

What does FC do for you? The range helps on CTs for being shot and for CMTs, and FC allies are ideal good for flank marches.

Consider just TCs, or buy an IC for the double bonus and more than doubled area of coverage vs. the FC, but you may not find that necessary so I'd suggest trying the TC only first.

Giving up a Knight BG for three LF BGs increases your attrition points and terrain capability. Having 7 skirmisher BGs means you can skirmish all along the line while driving to smash one point with the heavies - a screen and smash approach such as that practiced by Numidians or Parthians heavy on skrimishers and with a few heavy BGs with punch - some good AARs in the forum on that.

Since it involves pinning down the enemy some and then targeting a part of the line, it can involve great haste or considerable caution and maneuver depending on the situation, so judgment, foresight and some cunning - fairly byzantine.

Knights cant move through LF..................I could charge through LF with Cav

I thought any mounted could move through LF?. But nobody can charge through anybody unless involuntarily after failing a CMT.

I prefer the second version with the LF