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Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:17 pm
by nyczar
All,
I am proud to say that I have loss over 100 times in FOG II play, 103 to be exact. In every case, I have played my losses to the end not only because I wanted to observe how to improve my game play but also because I know my opponent wants me to play competitively, to the end, so that he may see his strategies through and enjoy the fruits of a well earned victory.
By losing, sometimes badly, I have learned that:
- An experienced opponent will never do what I want them to do and I have to be flexible
- Skirmishers are not useless (yes I thought so at the start)
- Elephants are like atomic bombs, handle with care or they can hurt you more than the enemy
- A diagonal line may easily be exploited
- Carthaginians are not a lousy list, but one of the best in the hands of a skilled player
- Maneuver is essential, static play will almost always lead to a loss or an uninspiring draw
- And many more lessons that have helped me to be a more competitive player today
No win is better than a win against a Nemesis. FOG II rewards skill and experience and in any given game, anyone can win. By learning and leaning in, I have beaten (almost all) of my most difficult opponents.
In three of the last six Slitherine FOG II tournaments, I have been matched with players who failed to finished their games or who surrendered early when things went against them. To these players, current and future, I ask that before you sign up to play in a Slitherine tournament, please make a commitment to play your games out no matter what; you will learn more and, equally important, you will ensure your opponent gets the best result he is entitled to. To quit is to, in effect, damage or even ruin your opponent’s opportunity to test himself against the very best competitors in the community. By quitting, you diminish the fun of the tournament and the spirit of a vibrant and intelligent community of hobbyists, historians, and strategists.
I wish there was a way that “playing to the end” could be enforced via game or moderator mechanics in a public tournament. It seems that in the interests of open and inclusive play there is not a way to do this, or the time and cost to do so is prohibitive. In the end, it is up to the community of players to embody the best principles of gamesmanship and competitive play. I humbly ask our community of individuals to choose to be the best competitors that we can be; please finish your matches.
Respectfully,
nyczar
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:48 pm
by MikeC_81
nyczar wrote: ↑Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:17 pm
In three of the last six Slitherine FOG II tournaments, I have been matched with players who failed to finished their games or who surrendered early when things went against them. To these players, current and future, I ask that before you sign up to play in a Slitherine tournament, please make a commitment to play your games out no matter what; you will learn more and, equally important, you will ensure your opponent gets the best result he is entitled to. To quit is to, in effect, damage or even ruin your opponent’s opportunity to test himself against the very best competitors in the community. By quitting, you diminish the fun of the tournament and the spirit of a vibrant and intelligent community of hobbyists, historians, and strategists.
+1
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:55 am
by rbodleyscott
MikeC_81 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:48 pm
nyczar wrote: ↑Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:17 pm
In three of the last six Slitherine FOG II tournaments, I have been matched with players who failed to finished their games or who surrendered early when things went against them. To these players, current and future, I ask that before you sign up to play in a Slitherine tournament, please make a commitment to play your games out no matter what; you will learn more and, equally important, you will ensure your opponent gets the best result he is entitled to. To quit is to, in effect, damage or even ruin your opponent’s opportunity to test himself against the very best competitors in the community. By quitting, you diminish the fun of the tournament and the spirit of a vibrant and intelligent community of hobbyists, historians, and strategists.
+1
+1.
We do want to encourage playing to the bitter end when losing. There is even a STEAM achievement for doing so.
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:53 pm
by Morbio
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:55 am
MikeC_81 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:48 pm
nyczar wrote: ↑Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:17 pm
In three of the last six Slitherine FOG II tournaments, I have been matched with players who failed to finished their games or who surrendered early when things went against them. To these players, current and future, I ask that before you sign up to play in a Slitherine tournament, please make a commitment to play your games out no matter what; you will learn more and, equally important, you will ensure your opponent gets the best result he is entitled to. To quit is to, in effect, damage or even ruin your opponent’s opportunity to test himself against the very best competitors in the community. By quitting, you diminish the fun of the tournament and the spirit of a vibrant and intelligent community of hobbyists, historians, and strategists.
+1
+1.
We do want to encourage playing to the bitter end when losing. There is even a STEAM achievement for doing so.
+1
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:22 pm
by Barrold713
nyczar wrote: ↑Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:17 pm
All,
I am proud to say that I have loss over 100 times in FOG II play, 103 to be exact. In every case, I have played my losses to the end not only because I wanted to observe how to improve my game play but also because I know my opponent wants me to play competitively, to the end, so that he may see his strategies through and enjoy the fruits of a well earned victory.
By losing, sometimes badly, I have learned that:
- An experienced opponent will never do what I want them to do and I have to be flexible
- Skirmishers are not useless (yes I thought so at the start)
- Elephants are like atomic bombs, handle with care or they can hurt you more than the enemy
- A diagonal line may easily be exploited
- Carthaginians are not a lousy list, but one of the best in the hands of a skilled player
- Maneuver is essential, static play will almost always lead to a loss or an uninspiring draw
- And many more lessons that have helped me to be a more competitive player today
No win is better than a win against a Nemesis. FOG II rewards skill and experience and in any given game, anyone can win. By learning and leaning in, I have beaten (almost all) of my most difficult opponents.
In three of the last six Slitherine FOG II tournaments, I have been matched with players who failed to finished their games or who surrendered early when things went against them. To these players, current and future, I ask that before you sign up to play in a Slitherine tournament, please make a commitment to play your games out no matter what; you will learn more and, equally important, you will ensure your opponent gets the best result he is entitled to. To quit is to, in effect, damage or even ruin your opponent’s opportunity to test himself against the very best competitors in the community. By quitting, you diminish the fun of the tournament and the spirit of a vibrant and intelligent community of hobbyists, historians, and strategists.
I wish there was a way that “playing to the end” could be enforced via game or moderator mechanics in a public tournament. It seems that in the interests of open and inclusive play there is not a way to do this, or the time and cost to do so is prohibitive. In the end, it is up to the community of players to embody the best principles of gamesmanship and competitive play. I humbly ask our community of individuals to choose to be the best competitors that we can be; please finish your matches.
Respectfully,
nyczar
I heartily endorse every single word of this post.
Furthermore as the 3rd round opponent of nyczar (and previous loser in another tournament) I can commit 100% to an attempt to become a full fledged nemesis.
My record of losing is pretty well established at this point, but what sustains the effort are the occasions in which the correct decisions are made and the fortunes of war favor instead of punish. The times where a plan hangs together just long enough to bring victory.
Sometimes, just making the game close and having the opposing side really have to fight for the win is a satisfaction in itself. Even the numerous bare butt spankings at the hands of clearly better players (like round 2 of this current tournament
) provide a dose of humility and humbleness that keeps one grounded.
Pointy sticks rule!
BDH
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:23 pm
by ianiow
Morbio wrote: ↑Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:53 pm
rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:55 am
MikeC_81 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:48 pm
+1
+1.
We do want to encourage playing to the bitter end when losing. There is even a STEAM achievement for doing so.
+1
+1 Well said nyczar. I too am proud of my record of never quitting in the face of humiliating defeat!
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:36 pm
by stockwellpete
I am not at all bothered if a player surrenders a match half way through. I just view it as an army breaking before the normal rout conditions come into play giving one side an overwhelming victory. Not saying anything at all and just abandoning the game is an entirely different matter, but this only seems to happen in non-tournament matches.
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:16 pm
by nyczar
stockwellpete wrote: ↑Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:36 pm
I am not at all bothered if a player surrenders a match half way through. I just view it as an army breaking before the normal rout conditions come into play giving one side an overwhelming victory. Not saying anything at all and just abandoning the game is an entirely different matter, but this only seems to happen in non-tournament matches.
My letter was written
only with Slitherine tournament play in mind. In the Slitherine Tournaments, quitting or abandonment has happened to me with three opponents and I am not alone in experiencing this (judging from the emerging support shown so far). Under Swiss rules, as opposed to the scoring employ in the digital league you so ably run, quitting or abandoning makes a world of difference. One of these opponents abandoned a game at a score of 20-10 (not actual score but the differential is the same)
after 12 turns. He did so right before I was to role his right flank.
No doubt I was on my way to a 40+ to 10 win. My final score for the match since it was timed out after 12 turns was 20. Had he continued, it would have been at least 85 and probably more than 90. That is a damning difference in the standings.
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:15 am
by jomni
I also lose a lot and play til the bitter end. Though fortunately, I haven’t seen a quitter lately.
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:33 am
by Tresantes
I agree - and not just for tournament games. It is hard to grit your teeth and keep taking a beating when things are going against you, but I accept that is just the way it goes sometimes (or lots of times, for me).
In a recent game, I managed to pull off what I thought was quite a cool manoeuvre. It set me up very well on one flank, but things were going my opponent’s way on the other...and then he suddenly surrendered, saying I had him, there was no point continuing. It just didn’t feel satisfying to win that way.
Do we need to add some designation like WPTBE (Will Play to Bitter End) when we set up games?
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:07 am
by jomni
Hahaha. Maybe I’ll do that.
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:30 am
by rbodleyscott
Tresantes wrote: ↑Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:33 amDo we need to add some designation like WPTBE (Will Play to Bitter End) when we set up games?
I like this idea. It would have to be a gentlemen's agreement. We can't enforce it by preventing concessions, because the player could simply stop returning turns, which would be even more annoying.
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:33 am
by 76mm
I've played lots of non-tournament MP games, and have only had a handful of surrenders. Slightly irritating, but nothing I'm going to worry about. I'm much more irritated by the players that disappear or do one turn a week, etc.
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:49 am
by ahuyton
I can understand the irritation, and would myself play to the end. However, you can also understand that if a top player is wiping the floor with a less good one it can get to be pretty miserable watching your troops fragment and break. So I perfectly understand that sometimes people will get fed up and resign.
One alternative is for the weaker player to use terrain and defensive tactics to avoid crushing defeat but that also leads to irritation among some stronger players, which is a bit ironic.
Curiously in chess, which I enjoy, it is considered a bit discourteous not to resign if you are clearly in a losing position.
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:52 am
by SnuggleBunnies
I tend to ask if it's alright if I'm thinking about surrender, though I do so rarely, and never in the slitherine tournaments. However, this thread has strengthened my resolve to take even the most horrible, start of game, misclick inflicted beatings! Not even the rare surrender from me, from here on out!
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:26 pm
by nyczar
My concern is solely with tournament play using the automated scoring system. In the digital league, games are adjudicated if needed and in non tournament play, I have many of those gong concurrently that if someone surrenders or goes no show, I am generally not phased. In casual games, it is a different set of expectations for me, though i have fought them all out. I do relate to Tresantes post in that any time someone surrenders it is a bit of a let down as there is nothing so good as seeing your enemy flee in droves from the field while your troops are barely nicked.
Thanks all BTW, for the dialog. It did feel a bit risky to put my feelings (and my losses
) out there for the community to see. Appreciate the candid feedback.
nyczar
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:22 am
by FightingPoultry
Perhaps if there was a mechanism whereby the player who was victorious due to a surrender before the 40-15 score line , received a greatly enhanced bonus points award going forward - this would be acknowledgement that their play was deemed so awesome that their opponent felt they had to no choice but to give up early in the game.
I too agree that early surrenders are pain , what bugs me most however is people who sign up to a tournament and then just dont bother playing the game , i have a match atm and my opponent hasn't even appeared to set up their side prior to the first turn -
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:50 pm
by Barrold713
FightingPoultry wrote: ↑Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:22 am
Perhaps if there was a mechanism whereby the player who was victorious due to a surrender before the 40-15 score line , received a greatly enhanced bonus points award going forward - this would be acknowledgement that their play was deemed so awesome that their opponent felt they had to no choice but to give up early in the game.
I too agree that early surrenders are pain , what bugs me most however is people who sign up to a tournament and then just dont bother playing the game , i have a match atm and my opponent hasn't even appeared to set up their side prior to the first turn -
Well nyczar has completed his victory and I would commit to completing your tournament (with a likely boost in your win column) were it possible.
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:50 pm
by addstar
+1
Re: Open letter to all those who play or who may play in a public Slitherine tournament
Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:27 am
by klayeckles
great discussion...
so in the invitation to the tournament what about some instructions at the very front end about playing to the Bitter end? the tournaments certainly haven't had an issue filling up (i've missed the last two) quickly, and perhaps some gentle remarks about the commitment involved in these tournaments, and a gentle-person's agreement.