Slitherine

hi, just got the army lists for ottoman turks and must say that I feel a bit let down by the lists.
The number of bases for the janissaries is low, and even thoe it states in the write up on page 12 that azabs had been recruited in large numbers all you get from the lists are 8 bases in total. something very wrong here. I DO FEEL THAT some of these army lists have taken the true strong points out of each army and also the feel of each nation.
what do you chaps think.
michael

one can get 16 bases of janissaries and further 16 bases of Azab archers.

IMO this is plenty.

My concern is that they SUCK in period as they will be hard pressed to do enough damage vs historical opponents before being ridden down...especially vs knights

Why?:

Terrain is very hard to get in the appropriate areas for them to utilize. If your opponent is stupid enough to advance into uneven/rough to face them then they are just stupid.

Shooting is woefully inept in doing much to BGs with Hvy Armor or more than 8 stands. Yes, one must get more than one BG to shoot but that is not the easiest thing to do. There happens to be someone across the table from you doing their upmost to prevent such match-ups.

Lately have been playing L. Hungarians vs Ottomans and the battles go something like this....

L. Hung lose initiative so get first turn. They throw out their own LH screen to prevent 2nd moves. They march their 2xBGs of 10+ HA Def Spr HF as far forward as possible using terrain to secure flanks... And then move their BG of 6xHA Knights backed up with an IC to something juicy...

IMO these fights EVEN when one trys to make it a movement game comes down to have the turks holding on for dear life hopeing that time is called prior to total defeat....

Madcam.

Tricksy army to use the Ottoman - guy down the club has taken a year to get his head round it and come up with a list he likes and how to use it, but he is winning with it now.

One of those armies where history pulls a bit of a smoke and mirrors job on us - they were successful and had a huge empire, however, they tended to get a good kicking when they faced anyone competant and/or well equipped.

Well I spent a ton of time studying the history of the Ottomans. I love the period. But Nik is right. They struggled and lost a lot. So they learned to show up with more and come back again and again.

That said, i ran the demo list a lot and really like them. They have plenty of jannisaries. You don't really want more.

The timiarots take some getting used to. But should fare well again a lot of foes.

I think one of things the turks is not to design an army that is terrain dependent. As there mounted arm is key.

Also while I was not consulted on the lists, I think they are a pretty good take on the perriod. It is the 16th century european offensives that should have a bucnh more mob to dig ditches.

Now in the mid 15th century I think there is a case to be made for maybe one more group of Azab or trash foot. Although at 2000 points you can take a lot of trash. Then a solid case also for either a larger or 2nd groupd of Voynuks or possibly regrading the Iaylars and or part of the Jannisaries as the 2nd group of Voyunk types. Now the reason why I am not up in arms about not having them is the case gets stronger when the Ottomans showed up for sieges. But in the campaigns otherwise the numbers were not as numerous in the field battles.

Actually the army feels and functions a lot like it did historially too.

I thought they were a bit light on the foot. Garbage or not, I thought the voynuks would have been larger, but then you are short points elsewhere.

Don't start introducing history now Nik. We all know the seljuks bowed down to Ayyubids and Saladin steppes or no steppes...




Madcam

madcam2us wrote:I thought they were a bit light on the foot. Garbage or not, I thought the voynuks would have been larger, but then you are short points elsewhere.

Don't start introducing history now Nik. We all know the seljuks bowed down to Ayyubids and Saladin steppes or no steppes...




Madcam

Well I've beaten Seljuqs with Mamluks ...

Not really a case of wanting more foot options...

With this army ( and most shooty cav outfits) its had to trade space for time when the opponent moves first.

I liked the idea of being able to choose whether to give up on selecition terrain to move first option that was posted elsewhere....For the turks (and those that don't get steppes) its worth it to to be able to jump with the cav and get some table space between them and the rear edge...

madcam...

Beer is good tonite...

Molsen XXX 8% alcohol with flavor!

madcm.

madcam2us wrote:one can get 16 bases of janissaries and further 16 bases of Azab archers.

IMO this is plenty.

My concern is that they SUCK in period as they will be hard pressed to do enough damage vs historical opponents before being ridden down...especially vs knights

Why?:

Terrain is very hard to get in the appropriate areas for them to utilize. If your opponent is stupid enough to advance into uneven/rough to face them then they are just stupid.

Shooting is woefully inept in doing much to BGs with Hvy Armor or more than 8 stands. Yes, one must get more than one BG to shoot but that is not the easiest thing to do. There happens to be someone across the table from you doing their upmost to prevent such match-ups.

Lately have been playing L. Hungarians vs Ottomans and the battles go something like this....

L. Hung lose initiative so get first turn. They throw out their own LH screen to prevent 2nd moves. They march their 2xBGs of 10+ HA Def Spr HF as far forward as possible using terrain to secure flanks... And then move their BG of 6xHA Knights backed up with an IC to something juicy...

IMO these fights EVEN when one trys to make it a movement game comes down to have the turks holding on for dear life hopeing that time is called prior to total defeat....

Madcam.

I seem to recall one battle against the Hungarians where the Janissaries were on a hill with the artillery behind field fortifications. I think if you duplicate this historical tactic in FOG you may get a historical result against knights.

It's a bit like asking longbowmen to systematically beat knights without bothering with the stakes. Didn't work then, doesn't now.

Julian

Except the LB with stakes are HIGHLY mobile keeping the initiative.

Janissaries have no such luck and would be stuck behind their field fortifications just waiting for enemy to pick their spots...

With due respect, we're (im) not playing history. I'm playing a game based on history. As such some latitudes have to be taken. I don't expect my opponent to charge me across my FF. Conversely, I don't expect Jannisaries to be uber-troopers.

I think the Ottomans would have benefited from the inclusion of a few Serb hard charging knights like the playtest lists allowed. Or giving those that win initiative the option of moving first OR choosing terrain.

That would help armies that might be a bit hamstrung by the omission of key factors in the game. (Armored foot in mass & Kniggets)

Madcam.

madcam2us wrote:
I think the Ottomans would have benefited from the inclusion of a few Serb hard charging knights like the playtest lists allowed.

You mean like the Serb ally allowed by the list?

nikgaukroger wrote:

madcam2us wrote:
I think the Ottomans would have benefited from the inclusion of a few Serb hard charging knights like the playtest lists allowed.

You mean like the Serb ally allowed by the list?

NO as then they are limited in number and one has to use a Allied commander. Waste of points...

Eventually serbia was absorbed into the Turk empire (which you know) but within FoG timespan (1500) they were vassel enough that one would think they would have had used them without their own leader...

The play lists I saw required no allied commander to control them and without that they don't benefit from the IC one is spending 10% of his points on....

Nik, trolling a bit there....

Madcam.

LOL Trolling? LOL

madcam2us wrote:With due respect, we're (im) not playing history. I'm playing a game based on history. As such some latitudes have to be taken.
Madcam.

Then don't bother using the army lists. Write your own. Meanwhile I'll get on with repainting my LF with repeating hand-guns and holy hand grenades not mention the elite knights who say nee or the killer rabbits.

Julian (definitely trolling)

Guidelines on points for the Holy Hand Granades of Antioch????

Madcam

4pts, not 3 or 5 and 6 is right out

madcam2us wrote:
The play lists I saw required no allied commander to control them

Seems unlikely to me (unless somebody was taling liberties), but not really relevant as there are none in the published lists.

madaxeman's site has one listed with 2x4 groups...

Just saying...

Madcam

I'm sure by play lists you mean beta lists, right? Tim should take those down if they are not legal any more to avoid this sort of confusion.

1 IC
2 TC
1 TC Ally

12 Battlegroups
795 Points

2 qapu kalki Cv, Drilled, Superior, Armoureed, Bow, Sword
2 qapu kalki Cv, Drilled, Superior, Armoureed, Bow, Sword
4 Timariots Cv, Undrilled, Superior, Protected, Bow, Sword
4 Timariots Cv, Undrilled, Superior, Protected, Bow, Sword
4 Akinjis LH, Undrilled, Avg, UnProtected, Bow
4 Akinjis LH, Undrilled, Avg, UnProtected, Bow
4 Akinjis LH, Undrilled, Avg, UnProtected, Bow
6 Delis LH, Undrilled, Sup, UnProtected, Lance, Sword
4 Akinjis LH, Undrilled, Avg, UnProtected, Bow, Sword
6 Janisssaries, MF, Drilled, Sup, Protected, Bow
6 Janisssaries, MF, Drilled, Sup, Protected, Bow
6 Azabs, MF, UnDrilled, Avg, unProtected, Bow
6 Serbs Kn, Undrilled, Sup, Heavily Armoured, Lance, Sword

The army can unload a lot of superior bowshots and the Jannisaries shoudl be abel to be kept out of harms way with marches to the left/right if need be.

- Dropping the azabs to poor woudl get you enough points for a few FF which I'd recoomend.
- the serbs are deployed way back and last to ensure they get to fight something juicy.
- The drilled Cv are easy to angle to give that extra couple of superior shots or flank charge, also being drilled adn speedy they can generally go down earlier.

- I wouldnt take the serbs normally though just because it feels like cheating and the points woudl give a whole lot more timariots and drilled Cv!