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Horrible bouncing broken units situation
Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:13 pm
by paulcummins
Had an interesting one today, no idea if we did it right
after much messy toing and froing with lh, cav and drilled MF we had something like this
Code: Select all
CVCVCVCV (facing S)
LH1LH1LH1LH1 (facing N and fighting the CV)
MFMF
MFMF (facing S)
LHLH2
LHLH2 (facing N and fighting the MF)
The CV and MF were my Romans, the LH were the evil marauding huns.
Anyway , in the same melee LH1 and the MF broke
so LH1 went through LH2, disrupting them and the MF went through the (already Disrupted) CV fragging them.
In the pursuit the CV and LH2 hit eachother, and the CV broke for being charged while fragged.
does this sound right (though complicated)?
Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:27 pm
by babyshark
That is a crazy situation. My initial reaction is that both the broken units die on the spot, as neither can break through the other, nor pass the other by shifting up to one base width (assuming that I am reading your diagram correctly). On the other hand, it might be possible for:
1) them both to shift one base width--in opposite directions--and thereby pass each other and continue their respective routs; or,
2) if one goes before the other, that one gets removed for being unable to dodge enemy and the other one therefore gets to make a rout move. Perhaps the phasing player picks which rout is resolved first?
Marc
Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:26 pm
by hammy
I had a similar situation where two opposing BGs broke from shooting.
The order of rout is significant and that depends on the VMD. From the diagram it looks to me like neither BG can rout very far, I certainly can't understand where the bursting through bit comes from. Routers can't rout through enemy troops regardless of the enemy being broken or not.
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:58 am
by paulcummins
thatll be where it all went wrong - we tried to do some sort of simultaneous movement in opposite directions and routed them through each other.
so they should have rolled their VMD, and the fasted moved first, evaporating when it went the 2mm or so to hit the enemy BG behind it, the slower moving group would then survive to burst through its friends.
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:28 am
by sagji
hammy wrote:I had a similar situation where two opposing BGs broke from shooting.
The order of rout is significant and that depends on the VMD. From the diagram it looks to me like neither BG can rout very far, I certainly can't understand where the bursting through bit comes from. Routers can't rout through enemy troops regardless of the enemy being broken or not.
I think you are thinking of persuit - I can't see a rule for the order that routers move.
In which case it is the active player who chooses the order.
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:35 am
by philqw78
I think the spirit of the rules would be that both routing units are destroyed. But who plays that
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:41 am
by hammy
Alan has a point that as we are talking simultaneous routs the active player chooses.
If the LH rout first they turn, then encounter enemy so stop (in theory at 1 MU but as they start within 1 MU I assume they just stop where they are) and are caught by their pursuers. Then the MF turn, encounter enemy and are also caught by pursuers.
I don't think there is any provision for a BG evaporting because enemy troops got in the way of the rout, there is provision for this happening if friends are in the way.
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:13 am
by rbodleyscott
hammy wrote:I don't think there is any provision for a BG evaporting because enemy troops got in the way of the rout, there is provision for this happening if friends are in the way.
"If its path is obstructed by unbroken enemy that cannot be bypassed, the battle group is destroyed at the end of the phase."
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:23 am
by hammy
rbodleyscott wrote:hammy wrote:I don't think there is any provision for a BG evaporting because enemy troops got in the way of the rout, there is provision for this happening if friends are in the way.
"If its path is obstructed by unbroken enemy that cannot be bypassed, the battle group is destroyed at the end of the phase."
OK, read your rules next time hamilton
In this case we have two routing BGs that have their rout paths obstructed by
broken enemy so this rule doesn't apply.
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:33 am
by paulcummins
so what should happen?
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:01 pm
by rbodleyscott
paulcummins wrote:so what should happen?
Both get caught. Both lose base(s). Rinse and repeat until one or both are destroyed.
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:18 pm
by hammy
rbodleyscott wrote:paulcummins wrote:so what should happen?
Both get caught. Both lose base(s). Rinse and repeat until one or both are destroyed.
So what I said earlier was mostly right then
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:11 pm
by paulcummins
so they dont go through each other, and just get stuck in each others faces
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:16 pm
by nikgaukroger
Horrible big mess until they are butchered - sounds about right historically
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:55 pm
by hammy
They both lose bases until they have to be removed. If they are both removed in the same phase then the two pursuing BGs stand and look at each other. If one evaporates before the other then the remains of the non evaporated BG will then burst through their friends (assuming they are still there).
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:39 pm
by shall
Had an interesting one today, no idea if we did it right
after much messy toing and froing with lh, cav and drilled MF we had something like this
CVCVCVCV (facing S)
LH1LH1LH1LH1 (facing N and fighting the CV)
MFMF
MFMF (facing S)
LHLH2
LHLH2 (facing N and fighting the MF)
The CV and MF were my Romans, the LH were the evil marauding huns.
Anyway , in the same melee LH1 and the MF broke
so LH1 went through LH2, disrupting them and the MF went through the (already Disrupted) CV fragging them.
In the pursuit the CV and LH2 hit eachother, and the CV broke for being charged while fragged.
does this sound right (though complicated)?
Cool
Could be a deserved mess for the chaos. However...
If they are all alinged as shown to the left then LH1 were destroyed as they couldn't contract enough to get past the MF. The MF rout are destroyed as being unable to get through LH1.
In "Initial Routs" you should see that it say that troops who cannot rout are
destroyed at the end of the phase - so both stick around long enough to destroy other. [no book handy so check it]
End result both routing BGs are detrioyed and removed leaving the two other BGs pursuing into each other with no burst through effects.
Si
Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:54 pm
by rbodleyscott
shall wrote:In "Initial Routs" you should see that it say that troops who cannot rout are destroyed at the end of the phase - so both stick around long enough to destroy other. [no book handy so check it]
Don't think so Si. The initial rout rule is the same as the one I quoted above.
Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:32 pm
by shall
Interesting.
Now I have the book I rememberred correctly that they are removed if their path is obstructed , but it is only by unbroken enemy (botom of page 100). So you are right Richard the chaos would indeed occur.
Si
Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:02 pm
by lawrenceg
The initial rout is away from the enemy in close combat and stops 1MU away from enemy they can't avoid (or don't move at all if starting closer).
In the JAP the rout bisects the angle between all enemy in contact, so it looks as though both broken units would rout sideways.
Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 11:35 pm
by SirGarnet
nikgaukroger wrote:Horrible big mess until they are butchered - sounds about right historically
Another subtle and cool effect of the rules.