Slitherine

I was muddling through the Alain Touller price list, vainly exercising my truly horridly inadequate french, pondering WTF a "longue lance" might be (long pointy stick of some sort seemed to be the obvious conclusion), when it occurred to me, what defines a lance?

Pike and Spear are words we define fairly well. The classic hoplite spear was allegedly about 8' long. The classic sarissa was apparently about 15-21' long, depending on era and terrain. So we can figure that the dividing line is somewhere around 12' or 4 meters; shorter than that is a spear, longer is a pike.

But what makes a lance a lance? Is it the fact that it's used from horseback? That definition won't work in FoG since we have Lt. Spear-armed Cavalry and LH units.

So then, what defines a lance?

possum wrote:Pike and Spear are words we define fairly well. The classic hoplite spear was allegedly about 8' long. The classic sarissa was apparently about 15-21' long, depending on era and terrain. So we can figure that the dividing line is somewhere around 12' or 4 meters; shorter than that is a spear, longer is a pike.

To me the key distinction between pike and spear is that the former always requires both hands, while the latter is usually wielded in just one (though both may sometimes be used, e.g. when bracing to receive a cavalry charge).

But what makes a lance a lance? Is it the fact that it's used from horseback? That definition won't work in FoG since we have Lt. Spear-armed Cavalry and LH units.

So then, what defines a lance?

To me, a lance is a cavalry spear used primarily as a thrusting weapon, and sufficiently long that it usually needs to be either couched or held in both hands. A light spear is shorter and may be thrown instead of thrust.

But in a FoG context, the question is not the definition of 'lance', but the definition of 'lancer', which clearly includes a large dose of 'attitude' as well as weapon skill. Many troops armed with a lance are not classed as lancers; some whose spear is arguably not long enough to be a lance in the above sense are so classed.

Best wishes,
Matthew

If it's couched it's a lance, if it's not it's a spear.

Go back far enough and the word means javelin, the verb "lancer" means "to throw".

possum wrote:I was muddling through the Alain Touller price list, vainly exercising my truly horridly inadequate french, pondering WTF a "longue lance" might be (long pointy stick of some sort seemed to be the obvious conclusion), when it occurred to me, what defines a lance?

Don't assume that "lance" means the same in English as it does in French.

"Lancer" seems to cover those hard charging types who used a long pointy bit of wood (or the horse itself if they missed with the point) to transfer the momentum of hiorse and rider going fast to the enemy.

Practically, that tends to mean the pointy bit of wood needs to be relatively long - it need to stick out in front of horse so it hits the enemy before he can do anything to make horsey rear. It also needs to be held firmly, couched or in two hands but not wobbling about, or the momentum is dissipated. So ideally you'd want one that's 12 foot/3 metres of so so that it's in advance of horsy's face.

Infantry spear combat seems quite different. The momentum is far less than a horse gives you but thrusting and stabbing gives you more chance to hit a weak spot. A longer spear will be very handy, as you can jab at the enemy for a bit without reply (which would make you more accurate) and if you're organised your mates behind get to join in too so you have more spear points than the enemy.

Once the spear gets long enough to get wobbly one handed you become a pikeman

rbodleyscott wrote:Don't assume that "lance" means the same in English as it does in French.

It's extraordinary how often academic or professional translators of classical texts, who Really Ought To Know Better, render Latin 'lancea' (or even Greek 'longche') as English 'lance'.

Matthew

Isn't French much more specific about describing things compared with English? I thought I learned way back when that English is not a language of specifics as it is not as precise as other languages.

A lance can be defined similar to the US Supreme court finding on pornography. You may not know it when you see it, but you know it when it hits you in the chest and sends you flying off the back of a horse with two yards of wood inside of you.