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Terrain is not enough readable

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:09 am
by ErissN6
It was already asked somewhere:
_ Resources outposts may be hidden, moreover if they are grey. Please add contrast for these hexagons.
_ The impassable sides of hexagons are not seen easily, maybe change the color of the forbidden hex side of selected unit in red? (instead of green)

Re: Terrain is not enough readable

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:33 pm
by IainMcNeil
I've not seen a situation where resources are hidden. Can you give an example. Agree on the ridge lines and we are looking for a solution.

Re: Terrain is not enough readable

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:54 pm
by lildavdog
Terrain is as readable as it should be. Unless you are experiencing a bug (which this should be posted in the bug support section). Outposts show you what they offer if you hold your cursor over them.

Re: Terrain is not enough readable

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:59 pm
by ErissN6
Sorry, I meant not the resource, but the circle arround them: it's too light. Even, when I unzoom, its SM blue seem grey.
Maybe make those circle to glow.

Re: Terrain is not enough readable

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:59 am
by IainMcNeil
Hmm we already think they spoil the map so were reluctant to make them stand out more.

Re: Terrain is not enough readable

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:22 pm
by Whatman
ErissN6 wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:09 am _ The impassable sides of hexagons are not seen easily, maybe change the color of the forbidden hex side of selected unit in red? (instead of green)
As well can you make more visible cliff side / hill hexes?
Also can you plan to had mountain, marsh, jungle hexes ?

I would like to see when you are hightier than your enemy you can deal more dmg or have better range or get somekind of invulnerality because seing grenades launching from the bottom to the top of a cliff made laught + melee unit cannot attack so it's kinda unbalance IMO.

Re: Terrain is not enough readable

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:57 am
by thisisnudge
No, it's not, the terrain has some bad shaders, that's why it is hard to read.

I am looking today into the shaders. I suppose that the team could use a good lighting artist and VFX coder, because the game itself is darn good ;) and the models are very okay for such a game.

A few hints so far:

- The shadows are black and very hard, like in a horror film (because this is how lighting works in horror films) or on the Moon, and if it is not a horror game with many dark rooms, but open areas such as terrain instead, this is rather a beginner problem. This is unrealistic for a planet with flora and fauna though, and makes the terrain hard to read. Earth shadows are always combined with the sky color. This is different on the Moon. Just go outside and watch the colors of shadows around you, you'll see that even in dark areas the shadow remains rather soft and not just "black" and never even "grey", but almost always a mix of sky color + grey. This is in particular interesting in desert and dry areas. As a good advice: Play Warhammer 2 Total War (which has many different terrain types) and watch their coloring and shadow configurations, especially when you change the biome type.

- Unused outposts are sometimes hard to spot, although they are so useful to the game. They are easier to read on the mini map (still complicated though) than on the real map. Maybe add a flag or icon to indicate unused outposts?

- The buildings on the maps make almost no difference. They all look almost the same, except for the cities, of course. This is completely different to Total War or, say, Civilization or any bigger strategy game. I assume that you get the point. When you just look at your terrain and map, you hardly can tell what is there and what not. So either add icons (that you can switch on/off easier) or improve the readability of the buildings, because those buildings may work good close enough, but not in a large map, and not in particular if they have all the same color! Think development of an RTS and how important building type distinction is (something that Frostpunk didn't get right, which got some negative reviews, although everything else is very good and well done).

- When I switch to brightness 75 % and gamma 75 % the map looks better, though of course it is overlit and looks weird sometimes. My point: Yes, it is a dark world, but check out Warhammer Total War. They are actually pretty good at lighting dark worlds and terrain, which means -- it is still at day what you are showing with a lot of flora and fauna. Make it a bit "lighter". Bear in mind that players on YouTube suggest to turn on brightness and gamma higher, because they find the terrain hard to read... which means you certainly can and should improve it asap.

- Make the forest shadow lighter, much lighter. Now it's black. When I changed it into something more realistic, like a real forest, it looks much better and not like a collection of green stones (ground and vegetation xml).

- Undiscovered hex tiles. After a while I got how to spot when and when not the map goes further, but the undiscovered shader is hard to understand if you need to know whether you can go there further or if it is the end of an island, or the end of the map. CIV6 is, for instance, much better at it and you may need to look at it.

As an advice: Ask an artist to recreate the terrain coloring and lighting (with very little effort for the coder team). Artists usually see such things instantly. Programmers are usually bad at lighting ideas, unless they gained experience in heavy 3D projects, and therefore some cheap artist guide will be a huge help, so you can follow the guide and try to match it.

:)

Re: Terrain is not enough readable

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:48 pm
by thisisnudge
More hints after playing around with your shaders:

- Add more color variation to the forests. Yes, they are green, but forests usually consist of many shades of green and other colors. What I did: I've changed the flora green color per object just a bit, which then has the nice effect of looking more natural. An old, cheap effect. The same idea of color variation can be applied to many ground tiles, even if you use some perlin noise (or any other noise) to basically show some difference.

- The original tree green tone is similar to the ground green color. When you change the flora green color a bit, surprisingly, the forest looks more distinctive and interesting. Old trick as well, I know, but it works well.

- I've changed the fog of war shader. I tried to make it lighter and even brighter, just to see if it looks better. Indeed it is, but an artist would need to decide what is better for the game. Certainly better than the original dark grey block that you offer to players.

- Making the cliff shadows lighter make quites a difference to the rivers.

- I got rid of the darkness effect, made it brighter and a bit lighter -- and guess what? The game looks much better in my opinion. You see so many more details.

Still just playing around with the shaders, so only a few hints.

Re: Terrain is not enough readable

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:23 pm
by ErissN6
thisisnudge wrote: Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:57 amAsk an artist to recreate the terrain coloring and lighting (with very little effort for the coder team). Artists usually see such things instantly. Programmers.. :)
Yes this, thank for your post, that is an overwhole problem this lack of artistry feeling.
Or the artist is not a gamer, so he doesn't care about the very game, it's playability.