Slitherine

This is a long time coming and is inspired on the deep dive that KeldorKatarn aka LT. Joker and Braccada did on their playthrough discussion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aK8w6ar-MM
deep dive of units is 2 hours 27 minutes into it...I am enjoying the historical stuff and really enjoy listening to these 2 discuss the history and the game...

So based on their discussion I am putting my thoughts here:

My Top #1 favorite Infantry unit is the Gebirsjaeger far and away...
Here are the reasons:
Gebirsjaeger
Cheap...127 they do not need trucks...in fact trucks diminishes their effectiveness...
High Initiative 2 (I know it is the same as Pioniere but I almost always fire first with these guys, not sure why but they usually fire first)
Their special movement means much easier to get into close terrain. (This is key, because infantry caught in the clear is extremely easy to kill and to hit...close terrain not so much)
Easy to build up experience and kills...this is based on first 2 reasons...since they are so cheap giving them elite replacements is much more affordable than almost any other unit...

For these reasons in the first years of the war I buy mostly these as my starter units to build up experienced and heroed units.

My thoughts on the other units are as follows:

Pioniere
I see many users try and use these units exclusively...I do not recommend...for these reasons.
Slow...2 movement means trucks makes them more vulnerable...
Low Initiative 2: But they usually fire last, even when they do fire first they still usually end up taking damage on the back swing.
Many people like the fact that they are not exposed to Rugged Defense but regardless the fact that they usually take damage and require trucks they are a lot more expensive and difficult to build up in the early years...
Their advantage is they can hurt trapped hard units in close terrain well, but Grenadier do it better...their bunker busting is nice, but the Fallschimjaeger do it better...
So their best advantage is being able to one shot mines for only 1 strength loss...so I only have 2 in my Manstein playthrough...that is enough...

Cavalry
Um...no...way too vulnerable...never use...

Bruckenpioniere
Very limited use...only have one...
Their one advantage is in MP you can spam them relatively cheaply to stymie the advance of your opponent but in the single player game...1 is enough...

Regular Inf
I like regular inf and in 43 they are a nice option to consider...but early Gebirsjaeger beats them based on the ability to move through most rough terrain...
In 43 I converted 2 Gebirsjaeger's to Regular Inf and 2 to Grenadiers.

Grenaider
Great Defensive unit...they are impossible for the enemy to push past if backed up well...so I do not use much in early war because you need to be aggressive, but later war I have 3 but am considering converting a couple of more based on the Braccada / Lt Joker discussion...I am thinking having some of the Super Heroes like Bruno Sutkus or Mathias might make sense...These walking tanks are very nice to have in your pocket in latter years...

Fallschimjaeger
Based on their discussion I am reconsidering my dislike for these units...I think they have a place in early Campaign but their low defense and low ammo count make them more vulnerable then other units...I have 1 in my Super Hard playthrough that I will work on with a truck to keep him grounded...but will have to see what I can do with him before I render a final decision...In the past I have bought them and used them as flying troops to go deep and eventually I lose them...I don't like losing units.

Kradschutzen
I like these guys a lot more than I would have thought I would...What I love is to take a Gebirsjaeger unit that I have built up and has been awarded with a +1 Spotting hero...excellent Kradschutzen...Having 4 Spotting is the key, because even in inclement weather you can still see 2 so can see if they have back up arty that you can suppress...this is so very important...I just wish they had recon movement, but even without it they have a very nice roll in the army as they are extremely cheap and great in their role...recon and great at mopping up suppressed units. Maybe Bruno Sutkus should be one of these?

Volkssturm
I only used these in my Field Marhsall playthrough, in 45 as gap fillers for defensive scenarios paired with cheap 10.5cm arty's which helps make them a lot more difficult to dig out...they help as gap fillers in your weakened infantry forces in 45, if you were like me and lost many of your experienced core your first time through...they help keep the soft cap down and can have a role in bolstering your beleagured forces...I am expecting to need them in my Super Hard Playthrough, but hoping that my Broad...broad infantry force on Manstein will not require their use as I do not think they will be needed...


So again to summarize my thoughts...Gebirsjaeger are the best starter unit...from that base build a strong diverse force that can handle the latter years well...do not get stuck on any single unit but build up strong diverse force by using cheap units at the start of the Campaign and upgrading to more diverse core once heroes are awarded...This will benefit you greatly and help you finish this very difficult yet very rewarding game...

Share your thoughts as I look forward to the discussion

Gebirgsjäger and Regular Infantry as front-line units all the way. The former still has hill movement bonus even with half-tracks. They have the vital six ammo, which is the bare minimum for efficient front-line duty I find.

Fallschirmjäger are great but require doing some homework to find good drop points. They can re-board planes and fly off immediately on any airfield after their initial drop, which is a very effective tactic to cover large portions of the map, making them extremely efficient on some scenarios. They're also incredibly cheap considering they come with planes.

Then for the Allies it's Rangers, which are by far the best infantry in the game having five initiative, good attack/defense, and seven ammo.

Nikivdd's excellent OOB allows the recon move for Kradschutzen. I use them instead of Recon. Gebirgsjaeger are the main infantry I use in 1939/1940. As the heroes come in I switch them. Movement gets them to Grenadiers, spotting gets them to Kradschutzen. In this double Rommel playthrough I have been reluctant to spend prestige on luxuries like that. Playing with just a few hundred prestige is scary hard.

Infantry 43 is great. All around unit, with 3 movement, can counterattack, can hold ground. Throughout GC I had them paired with Grenadiers (2inf, 1gren). Close contender Gebirgsjäger without trucks for same reasons as OP.

I quite like Pioneers with halftracks. I group them with panzers and s-p artillery to take cities while blitzing across the map. Luckily, I got one with a movement hero.
For exploitation and maneuver in general it's usually like 4-6 Pz's, 2-4 s.p.art and 2 pioneers.

Mixing infantry units works in my experience. Usually the map divides into two or more sectors to hold or advance through so in one group 1 gren, 1 pioneer, 2 inf + support; and other group 1 gren, 1 pioneer, 2 inf, 1 geb + support. Those can be further divided and paired if three or four main efforts are needed.

I always include at least one Pioneer unit with each assault group. As many have pointed out they have their weaknesses but they are one of my most used infantry units, although I wouldn't use them for defence. I agree broadly with auda that a mix is best and that is was what I always go for. The Kradschutzen and Cavalry I rarely use after the early years, although they are useful in Nikivdd's excellent 35-39 mod. I have a couple of Fallschimjaeger units that I might use depending on the scenario.

Conscripts are the best infantry unit for MP. They are cheap and hilariously hard to dislodge from a supported and entrenched position. They allow you to surround units easily. Combined with a some artillery fire and/or strategic bombing, they even make the strongest of tanks surrender to them. You can send waves after waves of them into enemy positions with the hope of depleting the enemy ammo's reserves, specifically the artillery supporting the front line. Because of their price and their abilities they are very OP

Germany doesn't have anything like this unfortunately. Bruckenpioniere is the cheapest German infantry at 113. Far too expensive compared to 60 of a conscript. So why not pay 127 for regular infantry, you get extra initiative, extra movement, extra ammo, and extra firepower. Same general idea as with Russian conscripts however they cost double and do not preform double.

Grenadier is great for defense, not so much for offense. Problem of course lies in the 2 movement. When trying to use these of the attack 2 movement becomes a major concern. You must plan your attack around these guys first. Even then you realize how painful 2 movement actually is. They can have trucks or APCs sure, but that makes them vulnerable in transit, requiring more care while advancing. Time is a major factor in MP. When you can use them they do act like mini tanks are definitely worth it, but you should have between 0-1 on the offense and 1-2 of the defense if possible. Another problem is their price, depending on which transport you pick, they either are more expensive then tanks or slightly less, so why didn't you just pick a tank instead?

Gebirsjaeger, just don't bother with these. People think they are better than regular infantry but these people are wrong. Trading one extra soft attack for 1 defense is very bad. Your infantry primary weakness is against artillery which the defense stat affects. Can't tell you how many times just a single artillery shot has completely crippled this unit type.

Kradschutzen, remember how time matters? Well with 8 movement on road this units makes sure that he will be doing something every turn. 20 prestige more for 3 spotting isn't to shabby either combined with extra initiative and soft attack compared to regular infantry makes this a great unit. As long as you have the distances to utilize them you should always have at least one. You can also think of them as Recons without the split movement.

Fallschimjaeger, don't ever do it. Again people really seem to like this unit and they are wrong. Yes they do have amazing soft attack and initiative, but look at that horrible defense stat. They are extremely vulnerable to artillery fire or if caught in open terrain. Another major concern is 4 ammo which depletes within the same turn making them easy pray.

a432 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:04 pm Conscripts are the best infantry unit for MP. They are cheap and hilariously hard to dislodge from a supported and entrenched position. They allow you to surround units easily. Combined with a some artillery fire and/or strategic bombing, they even make the strongest of tanks surrender to them. You can send waves after waves of them into enemy positions with the hope of depleting the enemy ammo's reserves, specifically the artillery supporting the front line. Because of their price and their abilities they are very OP

Germany doesn't have anything like this unfortunately. Bruckenpioniere is the cheapest German infantry at 113. Far too expensive compared to 60 of a conscript. So why not pay 127 for regular infantry, you get extra initiative, extra movement, extra ammo, and extra firepower. Same general idea as with Russian conscripts however they cost double and do not preform double.

Grenadier is great for defense, not so much for offense. Problem of course lies in the 2 movement. When trying to use these of the attack 2 movement becomes a major concern. You must plan your attack around these guys first. Even then you realize how painful 2 movement actually is. They can have trucks or APCs sure, but that makes them vulnerable in transit, requiring more care while advancing. Time is a major factor in MP. When you can use them they do act like mini tanks are definitely worth it, but you should have between 0-1 on the offense and 1-2 of the defense if possible.

Gebirsjaeger, just don't bother with these. People think they are better than regular infantry but these people are wrong. Trading one extra soft attack for 1 defense is very bad. Your infantry primary weakness is against artillery which the defense stat affects. Can't tell you how many times just a single artillery shot has completely crippled this unit type.

Kradschutzen, remember how time matters? Well with 8 movement on road this units makes sure that he will be doing something every turn. 20 prestige more for 3 spotting isn't to shabby either combined with extra initiative and soft attack compared to regular infantry makes this a great unit. As long as you have the distances to utilize them you should always have at least one. You can also think of them as Recons without the split movement.

Fallschimjaeger, don't ever do it. Again people really seem to like this unit and they are wrong. Yes they do have amazing soft attack and initiative, but look at that horrible defense stat. They are extremely vulnerable to artillery fire or if caught in open terrain. Another major concern is 4 ammo which depletes within the same turn making them easy pray.

I was talking about for single player game, but in regards to mp A432 raises some very good points...

My favourite german infantry for defence is SE Grenadiers as the extra ammo makes a useful difference. The 43 version with a move hero makes a great attacking force against soft targets, even if not fully suppressed. Two pioneers with a move hero artillery also make a good team for clearing entrenchments after the faster troops have picked off the outliers and supporting troops.

Kradschutzen are good but the limited fuel can be a pain, especially in mud of snow when they are almost useless. My first spotting hero infantry always gets converted to a Krad. Nico's mod allows them recon move which is handy but not essential, and also allows a 43 upgrade which keeps them useful a bit longer.

For me, gebirgsjagers are a bit like paras in that I use them for special occasions only, but gebirgsjagers are more useful in general play because of the ammo, defence and slightly better movement.

This is a very informative discussion. As many opinions and styles as there are people.


I really do not have a favorite infantry unit type. I have preferred circumstances for each type. Everyone comes to the party almost every time, in moderation.

Pioneers with attack and move heroes ignore entrenchment, and dig out city troops with a minimum of prep fire. At least one is on every map.

Mountain troops are great finding and using close terrain.

Wehr have the mobility. They can reach the unit that just scampered back a hex from a whuppin'.

Always one bridge unit in the core, and if there is a river, then they come along.

Grens are just mean. SE Grens with heroes are viscous. With arty backup they stand and deliver against almost all comers.

Motorcycle units are situational for me, as I am an 8Rad fan. They mop up well.

Fallschirm ae air-dropped in triplets or not at all, so it takes a while to get full use as I build that crowd up. The almost-obligatory air-transportable 75mm with move and range heroes is hard to make as well. Even with the ammo issue, paras can work well if one does not go "A Bridge Too Far".

Have yet to use Volk, as still early in my 1st GC run.

Some unit types lose their utility over others depending on campaign path, and date. I would not have the same OOB in the USA that I would have on the Eastern Front in '44/'45.

Pioneres are generally always my front line assault troops, and are also normally my most experienced and decorated units and I generally always keep at least 2 in my core.

Infantry is excellent, and I normally have 6-8 in my core.

Grenadiers are my workhorse units that provide excellent defense and for follow-on assaults. I generally have 3-5.

Gebirgsjager are simply great, especially Oleh Dir's devastating unit. However, I find it unrealistic that so many SE units are Gebirgsjager for the grand campaign (on the Soviet steppes?? ) so I upgrade to others. I generally keep 2-3.

Bruckenpioniers I seldom use, and keep one around if needed.

Fallschirmjagers I use realistically and generally keep 1-2 around.

Never use cavalry, and generally keep 1 Kradschutzen around.

goose_2 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:56 pm Cavalry
Um...no...way too vulnerable...never use...

slowgtp wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:10 pm Never use cavalry

What are you taking about!?
In Multiplayer it is really simple: The most devestating inf unit is the horse.

I used at least one for every tournament match. There's no other inf unit that says "You are not on my level" like a horse, which alone gives you a great psychological boost. Some people say "lol, cavalry, for what!?" - "Kicking your..." No other unit gets the match personal that fast!
Or... your opponent thinks you are stupid - which is also something only a horse can achieve in such convincing fashion.

Besides - it has a great look, a great sound... and if used well it's a surprisingly efficent unit as long as it doesn't end up in the front line after the turn. It does what the recon often does not: Dealing heavy dmg to the arty. A tank can be too valuable to waste it in a risky spot.
Fear of surrender? Not with a trusted horse on your side! Horses rather die for you than giving in to the enemy! (They have no choice, they just die that easy...) That fact alone has to warm your heart. Still not convinced?

Because of the heavy losses it takes if caught, it also has the big advantage of luring units in... Some players know they shouldn't, but in the end they can't resist that urge to deal 6 damage just by stepping one hex closer, so they get in reach of other units and you can keep the kill-streak rolling.
For the horse the one lost turn doesn't matter... it catches up soon enough.
Or... You take it even further to the enemy and he will be tempted to once again break line to kill it this time.. which can easily end in a decent trade prestige-wise.

On a philosophical note, the horse beats every other inf. It's just a struggle of nature against machinery. A gentlemans grit and gut versus technology and cold steel.
I know they are not actually riding the horse like classic cavalry, but the game makes it sound that way... Awesome!

In grand campaign the only way to use Oleh Dir without feeling really cheap is to get him in the saddle...

Besides: How many units can put a smile on your face when you see them? Buy into the magic of the cavalry - NOW!

Lifever wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:00 pm

goose_2 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:56 pm Cavalry
Um...no...way too vulnerable...never use...

slowgtp wrote: ↑Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:10 pm Never use cavalry

What are you taking about!?


In grand campaign the only way to use Oleh Dir without feeling really cheap is to get him in the saddle...

Besides: How many units can put a smile on your face when you see them? Buy into the magic of the cavalry - NOW!

Wait what?

You upgrade Oleh Dir into a Cavalry?
No way?
Really?

I cannot imagine putting Oleh into such a risky unit...I typically keep him in as a Gebirsjaeger the whole way through a campaign.

I see many people change him to a Pioniere. (I guess they like the thought of never getting Rugged Defense)
I changed him to a Grenadier in my Guderian West Campaign. (I wanted the extra punch and it has helped)
I changed him to a Fallschimjaeger in my new Super Hard Campaign...(I wanted the Bunker Busting and the greater attacking strength of a Fallschimjaeger)

So that is a question?
What do people typically upgrade Oleh Dir into and why?

goose_2 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:10 pm You upgrade Oleh Dir into a Cavalry?
No way?
Really?

Yep. He was one of the reasons I thought grand campaign on field marshal was way too easy. He is just ridiculous overpowered in my opinion. What is the reason he is so fast? If there is a mountain chain, he just teleports over it. He breaks the balance of inf units since he can save the player from positioning mistakes not even tanks can remedy - and makes it into an entrenchment hex to top that off..
So instead of not using him, which I did for a long time, I put him on a horse. The 8 hex range are a lot of ground covered, insane reach, but at least now it is risky to use him. He would still be very useful with +1 movement and the iniative boost...

Obviously there are a lot better ways to use him...

To Grenadiers? Not so much. Don't get their appeal btw. They lag behind all the time and when they finally see battle, they run out of ammo or close to.. so they need to reload... once they are done reloading and they make it back to the fighting troops, the battle is already won by all those brave soldiers, who are not too lazy to move fast and carry ammo on top of it. Grenadiers are good for one thing: standing around and telling your opponent: I am not going to move that front sector by an inch - don't you worry.. No hurry to get away either, set up all the traps you want.
Later in the game they get a little bit better to hold special terrain spots against tanks - I will give em that..

My love for pioneers has worn off as well... they are just slow and very expensive. You can basically think about buying elite reinforcements for paras with halftrack instead of refilling grenadiers, who most of the time get that nasty 1 dmg anyway... (unlike paras).

In conclusion if I would have to choose one best unit, I would seriously go with the normal inf, backed by gebirgsjäger if the terrain calls for it and paras for bunkers and cleaning out cities (in both instances they are no1 in my opinion).
Bikers are of course great when there is a road.. they make up for their ammo by hitting really hard. Like them too if losses don't matter and there are no arty/Surrender deathtraps.

Now I am confused

Double Rommel, Double Field Marshall, Progressively Manstein: Good

Oleh Dir Cavalry: Bad

Who is crazy here?

Lifever wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:48 pm

goose_2 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:10 pm You upgrade Oleh Dir into a Cavalry?
No way?
Really?

Yep. He was one of the reasons I thought grand campaign on field marshal was way too easy. He is just ridiculous overpowered in my opinion. What is the reason he is so fast? If there is a mountain chain, he just teleports over it. He breaks the balance of inf units since he can save the player from positioning mistakes not even tanks can remedy - and makes it into an entrenchment hex to top that off..
So instead of not using him, which I did for a long time, I put him on a horse. The 8 hex range are a lot of ground covered, insane reach, but at least now it is risky to use him. He would still be very useful with +1 movement and the iniative boost...

Obviously there are a lot better ways to use him...

To Grenadiers? Not so much. Don't get their appeal btw. They lag behind all the time and when they finally see battle, they run out of ammo or close to.. so they need to reload... once they are done reloading and they make it back to the fighting troops, the battle is already won by all those brave soldiers, who are not too lazy to move fast and carry ammo on top of it. Grenadiers are good for one thing: standing around and telling your opponent: I am not going to move that front sector by an inch - don't you worry.. No hurry to get away either, set up all the traps you want.
Later in the game they get a little bit better to hold special terrain spots against tanks - I will give em that..

My love for pioneers has worn off as well... they are just slow and very expensive. You can basically think about buying elite reinforcements for paras with halftrack instead of refilling grenadiers, who most of the time get that nasty 1 dmg anyway... (unlike paras).

In conclusion if I would have to choose one best unit, I would seriously go with the normal inf, backed by gebirgsjäger if the terrain calls for it and paras for bunkers and cleaning out cities (in both instances they are no1 in my opinion).
Bikers are of course great when there is a road.. they make up for their ammo by hitting really hard. Like them too if losses don't matter and there are no arty/Surrender deathtraps.

I can see that playing the Campaign without any Super heroes is something I have considered as well, but have opted for tweaking the overall difficulty so far...

I enjoy the awesomeness that is Oleh Dir, and Grenadier's have risen in my book at least in later war they become absolute beasts that are impossible to dislodge and great at hitting back in close terrain.

Cavalry has its place in mp, but I find people often overuse them and I prefer Gebirsjaeger as they are cheap and oh so versatile

dalfrede wrote: ↑Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:10 pm Now I am confused

Double Rommel, Double Field Marshall, Progressively Manstein: Good

Oleh Dir Cavalry: Bad

Who is crazy here?

well I never claimed consistency

Oleh Dir kradschutzen. Great idea until you see what happens to an 11-move unit with 40 fuel, miles ahead of the rest of the army and with only 5 ammo and lousy ground defence. I won't try it again. Oleh Dir cavalry would only be better by making it harder to get so badly isolated!

I agree the pioneers were awesome up to about Stalingrad. then suddenly their effectiveness drops. SMG tear them up.
And as was said they're very expensive. I had to reinforced one hit to 4 at Kharkov. Cost me several hundred prestige. Think it'd be better to use grenadier or register infantry and save the difference

Pioniere/Engineer for infantry units with movement heroes. It's a no-brainer. Their ability to ignore entrenchments is huge.

For infantry with no movement heroes it is less clear. I like to convert the "hero" units like Josef Allerberger to Kradschutzen. For the rest it's Gebirgsjaeger or ordinary Wehrmacht infantry.

Paratroopers are not that useful in the Grand Campaign, as there are only a very small number of scenarios where it helps to fly them into a situation. In my first attempt at the Grand Campaign I had three of them and I ended up just dropping them on the front line on the first turn in almost every scenario. Their lack of ammo and the inability to have them engage until at least the second turn turn is a major drawback.

loganfive wrote: ↑Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:10 pm Pioniere/Engineer for infantry units with movement heroes. It's a no-brainer. Their ability to ignore entrenchments is huge.

For infantry with no movement heroes it is less clear. I like to convert the "hero" units like Josef Allerberger to Kradschutzen. For the rest it's Gebirgsjaeger or ordinary Wehrmacht infantry.

Paratroopers are not that useful in the Grand Campaign, as there are only a very small number of scenarios where it helps to fly them into a situation. In my first attempt at the Grand Campaign I had three of them and I ended up just dropping them on the front line on the first turn in almost every scenario. Their lack of ammo and the inability to have them engage until at least the second turn turn is a major drawback.

I am appreciating Fallschimjaeger a little more in current run, you can immediately land them so you can use them in the first round, you just need to press the sky versus ground icon when you are deploying...

Don't worry I just was told this recently as well.