Slitherine

In the process of buying the models for a Principate Roman army from Old Glory 15s (they have a nice sale ending this month), but I am having fits finding the historical basis for some of the units in the list.

My army is going to be that of Emperor Trajan, either during or right after the Dacian Wars. As such, a mix of two types of legionaries:
http://oldglory15s.com/catalog/product_ ... ts_id=2406
http://oldglory15s.com/catalog/product_ ... ts_id=2415

Auxillary foot and Cavalry I have figured out, from that same line (Imperial Roman). Its when I get into models included in the army list, but not in that line that I start to have problems. For example, I am thinking of the following models:

Allied Archers (unshaven/rough) - http://oldglory15s.com/catalog/product_ ... ts_id=2664
Attached Archers (clean) - http://oldglory15s.com/catalog/product_ ... ts_id=1031
Javelinmen (rather than velites, which would look out of place) - http://oldglory15s.com/catalog/product_ ... ts_id=1032

Another option I considered was a mixed miniatures product of archers/slingers, like this:
http://oldglory15s.com/catalog/product_ ... ts_id=3132


My problem is that I can find no real reference to Equities Sagittarii or Catafractarii/Contarii in the period listed (before 197AD for one, after 100AD for the other). I can find reference in the later Imperial army, but none that early.

Equities Sagittarii are listed as being horse-bound auxillary archers. Them being unprotected means I cant use the regular armored horse archers. So, I found these models, but was not sure which would be more appropriate:
Sarmatian Horse Archer - http://oldglory15s.com/catalog/product_ ... ts_id=3053
Late Roman Horse Archer - http://oldglory15s.com/catalog/product_ ... ts_id=2669

Catafractarii/Contarii, being armored cavalry that are lancers and swordsmen (rather than cataphracts or knights) seems more like something along the lines of the equites singulares augusti, which is how I plan to model them. The praetorian cavalry. Am I way off on that? Anyway, the model I was considering is:
(listed as Equites Singularis) http://oldglory15s.com/catalog/product_ ... ts_id=2417


Just wanted to get an opinion from veteran players. Still brand new to historicals, and the reputation of some groups and players being ruthless in their desire for 'authentic' armies is making me worry a bit. Coming from other miniatures games reenforces that, but those games had specific models designed for the game.. where here it often seems like a 'best guess'.

Please take a look and let me know if I am too far off the mark.

The two archer figures are for the later Dominate or Foderate armies though they might be used for LF unarmored achers in an eastern Principate army. The Equites Singularis are the Roman Guard Cavalry. For Equites Sagitarii and Cataphractarii you can use Parthians or Palmyrans.

For Trajan's time do not use Palmyrans or Pathians for the catafractarii

At this time they are basically normal equites but use a contus in stead of the usual spear and shield combo.

Are the models I gave examples of acceptable for the army? I tried to pick ones that matched the stats (plain clothes for the unarmored archers, beards and such for the undrilled archers, etc).

Blimey, those pictures of the unpainted figs would put me off Old Glory for life - horrible things

As for suitability:

Legionarii are fine as you'd expect.

Allied archers are OK as well and so are the javelinmen. The mixed bag of Cretans and slingers are also OK and all these suggestions have the advantage of being quite generic and so will fit into other armies as well

I like the look of the Sarmatian horse archers but suspect that the Late Roman ones are a touch more suitable as I think the Romans would not have used the steppe cross-over wrap style of coat at this period.

The catafractarii, as mentioned, should be shieldless with a long spear. So the Equites Singularis figures aren't right for them I'm afraid.

Hope that helps.

nikgaukroger wrote:Blimey, those pictures of the unpainted figs would put me off Old Glory for life - horrible things

Yea, I really hope that they look better when I get them.

Allied archers are OK as well and so are the javelinmen. The mixed bag of Cretans and slingers are also OK and all these suggestions have the advantage of being quite generic and so will fit into other armies as well

That was what I was thinking.

I like the look of the Sarmatian horse archers but suspect that the Late Roman ones are a touch more suitable as I think the Romans would not have used the steppe cross-over wrap style of coat at this period.

I didnt think they would of used that cross-over style quite yet either, but figured I would put it out there.

The catafractarii, as mentioned, should be shieldless with a long spear. So the Equites Singularis figures aren't right for them I'm afraid.

Who mentioned that they should be shieldless with a long-spear?

My problem is that I can can find no reference, in any of the books I have on the Roman Empire at this time (several Osprey texts, as well as other books), to anything in this period in use by the Romans that even resembled a cataphract. I was going on the rulebook definition of the unit:
Cavalry vs Cataphract
Armored - Metal armor at least for the head and thorax... Also cavalry with extensive non-metallic armor for man at horse.

Since I cant find any reference, historically for this period, I have no idea what they should look like. Thats why I had planned to do a 'counts as' based on the rules. Helm, armor, and large shield. Spear (lance), etc.

Unless you can help me out with a more appropriate model, and some more info on their use (or even their existence) in this period?

Hope that helps.[/quote]

Omar wrote:

The catafractarii, as mentioned, should be shieldless with a long spear. So the Equites Singularis figures aren't right for them I'm afraid.

Who mentioned that they should be shieldless with a long-spear?

Me whan I said "At this time they are basically normal equites but use a contus in stead of the usual spear and shield combo."

My problem is that I can can find no reference, in any of the books I have on the Roman Empire at this time (several Osprey texts, as well as other books), to anything in this period in use by the Romans that even resembled a cataphract. I was going on the rulebook definition of the unit:
Cavalry vs Cataphract
Armored - Metal armor at least for the head and thorax... Also cavalry with extensive non-metallic armor for man at horse.

Since I cant find any reference, historically for this period, I have no idea what they should look like. Thats why I had planned to do a 'counts as' based on the rules. Helm, armor, and large shield. Spear (lance), etc.

Unless you can help me out with a more appropriate model, and some more info on their use (or even their existence) in this period?

Hope that helps.

Ho hum, terminology strikes again

"Catafract" at its most basic just means "covered" - you can have catafract ships for example - and is used in some sources to describe basic body armour. However, it was also often used to describe the fully armoured (FoG Heavy Armour) specialist troops in Parthian, etc. armies. Just to help later wargamers the Romans called some of their first units of "lancer" cavalry catafractarii even though they didn't have the same degree of armour as other contemporary enemy catafracts Other units of these were called "contarii" after the contus (long spear) they carried. Both these types appear not to have used a shield.

You may get some joy searching figure ranges for contarii rather than catafractarii in the period you are looking at.

nikgaukroger wrote:Me whan I said "At this time they are basically normal equites but use a contus in stead of the usual spear and shield combo."

Ahh.. totally missed that. Sorry.

Ho hum, terminology strikes again

"Catafract" at its most basic just means "covered" - you can have catafract ships for example - and is used in some sources to describe basic body armour. However, it was also often used to describe the fully armoured (FoG Heavy Armour) specialist troops in Parthian, etc. armies. Just to help later wargamers the Romans called some of their first units of "lancer" cavalry catafractarii even though they didn't have the same degree of armour as other contemporary enemy catafracts Other units of these were called "contarii" after the contus (long spear) they carried. Both these types appear not to have used a shield.

You may get some joy searching figure ranges for contarii rather than catafractarii in the period you are looking at.

I spent most of the day yesterday looking for info on catafractarii or contarii in this time and came up with nothing. I can envision what you describe but cant seem to find any info in any of the sources I have, hence alot of my confusion. But, there are alot of troop types I dont recognize the names of from the text.

I am not expert on the field, but I would like to say I am fairly well educated, with the infantry at least. Several years of reenactment will help you along in ways. Can you point me to some source that they used to make the list up, if you know of any? I have been digging through Osprey titles trying to find info with no luck, not to mention my other books.

Either way, I decided to go the 'counts as' route with them. Four troops armed with metal body armor and helmet, shield, and spear/lance. Will paint them up nice and let my opponent know what they are representing. Later on, if I can find the appropriate models to use, I replace them.

contarii from corvus belli:
http://www.corvusbelli.com/en/ver.asp?i ... A=../fotos

sagittarii:
viewtopic.php?t=7140

Omar wrote:
I am not expert on the field, but I would like to say I am fairly well educated, with the infantry at least. Several years of reenactment will help you along in ways. Can you point me to some source that they used to make the list up, if you know of any? I have been digging through Osprey titles trying to find info with no luck, not to mention my other books.

I was about to go and list all the books I used and the realised that I could name about 20 off the top of my head

So instead I'll suggest:

Bishop & Coulston – "Roman Military Equipment"
Goldsworthy - anything he has written
Hyland - "Training the Roman Cavalry"

as pretty good places to start.