Slitherine

I decided to open a forum to discuss artillery ranges and the units themselves. In several cases i have found strange values or just minor inaccuracies.
Of course there is no general rule for hex-to-meter formula, as we must take other factors into account like usage method, sighting and most importantly relative performance in cases when there must be a range difference between certain units.

I made a xcel table because the first time I wrote this post, all went lost... Let me know what you think and what you suggest. I would also like to hear ideas, how to make recolored copies of gun units...?

There are guns which are not in the game. Either because I suggest their implementation (importance, gap fillings), or because that model better represents the weapons used. Also I brought them up for comparison example.
There are gun not included, either because I forgot - or because they are correct that way, similarly to another model.

Good thread. I hope the devs take notice.

I have the same concerns and actually developed 2 "units" files- one representing battalion sized units and the other for regiment/brigade. For battalions I used one mile (5/8000 X Range in meters) and Rgts/Bdes half that, but at least 2 minimum. Any game that explicitly uses light AT and AA guns as independent(OoB) is best played at battalion level- particularly in the Sandstorm Campaign where they actually listed historical UK brigade multi-unit formations. I also modified naval gun ranges based on actual WWII gunnery firing tables: duel-purpose guns= 4; 5" thru 8" range equals bore size, i.e. 5=5,...,8=8; 10"-14"=9;15"=10;prewar 16"=11;post1938 16"=12.

I have the same concerns and actually developed 2 "units" files- one representing battalion sized units and the other for regiment/brigade. For battalions I used one mile (5/8000 X Range in meters) and Rgts/Bdes half that, but at least 2 minimum. Any game that explicitly uses light AT and AA guns as independent(OoB) is best played at battalion level- particularly in the Sandstorm Campaign where they actually listed historical UK brigade multi-unit formations. I also modified naval gun ranges based on actual WWII gunnery firing tables: duel-purpose guns= 4; 5" thru 8" range equals bore size, i.e. 5=5,...,8=8; 10"-14"=9;15"=10;prewar 16"=11;post1938 16"=12.

I have the same concerns and actually developed 2 "units" files- one representing battalion sized units and the other for regiment/brigade. For battalions I used one mile (5/8000 X Range in meters) and Rgts/Bdes half that, but at least 2 minimum. Any game that explicitly uses light AT and AA guns as independent(OoB) is best played at battalion level- particularly in the Sandstorm Campaign where they actually listed historical UK brigade multi-unit formations. I also modified naval gun ranges based on actual WWII gunnery firing tables: duel-purpose guns= 4; 5" thru 8" range equals bore size, i.e. 5=5,...,8=8; 10"-14"=9;15"=10;prewar 16"=11;post1938 16"=12.

Ah, good idea, I did not look into naval units yet!

My only concern is these changes might affect campaign scenarios - balance.

Admiral_Horthy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:58 pm Ah, good idea, I did not look into naval units yet!

My only concern is these changes might affect campaign scenarios - balance.

Ha jól sejtem a névből magyarul is tudunk értekezni ??

If I have a good idea of ​​the name, can we dissert in Hungarian ??

coverted to english while checking the comments

szascoli54 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 11:11 am

Admiral_Horthy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:58 pm Ah, good idea, I did not look into naval units yet!

My only concern is these changes might affect campaign scenarios - balance.

Ha jól sejtem a névből magyarul is tudunk értekezni ??

Igen tudunk) Persze akkor a tobbiek majd nem ertik...)

Artillery ranges of 2 is a bad idea. Such arty units often find no room in a front line together with towed anti-tank guns. Range 2 should rather be reserved for heavy-inf mortar ranges.
I've been toying around with such ranges in the past and gave up on realistically scaled ranges but still calculate conversions by a root-formula to a level the gameplay won't go down under.
My German K18 with range 9 is already annoying enough although only 1 hex further than vanilla. I’m also not sure if my calculated K5 range of only 16 compared to vanilla 18 still works well enough in vanilla scenarios. I already had to the reduce the naval-artillery ranges to max of 8 as these en masse can easily turn every pacific island to apple-pie if further.
Sometimes, scenarios are designed with vanilla artillery ranges in mind, so you have to be careful not to mess up something by changes.
Btw, the leFH18 with range 4 is the right range as it historically lacked it compared to Soviet artillery. This was fixed for the leFH18M with an improved shell that also packed more explosives than before, but unfortunately such unit upgrade is missing in vanilla. I made a dupe of the original unit for the 18M.

Great table, Admiral, thanks! I've used some of it with my mod.

Horst wrote: ↑Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:38 pm Artillery ranges of 2 is a bad idea. Such arty units often find no room in a front line together with towed anti-tank guns. Range 2 should rather be reserved for heavy-inf mortar ranges.

Agree.
The choice of 2-hex-range for the Katyusha should be changed as it was with the Wurfrahmen IMO.

The AI can't handle well artillery-vehicles. Too often I observe using these to race right in front of dangerous hostile units for the sake of bombarding something squishier behind.
I know the Wurfrahmen had a short firing range of about 2 km, but the way how the AI uses it with range 2 is simply catastrophic, but even range 3 can cause some disappointing front-line assaults. No idea if this is related to the aggressiveness setting.

Gents, it seems I have solved the Stug problem and the range 2 problem in this case.

I did tests, and the result was surprisingly adequate even for a maximalist pessimist like me

Problem 1: StuG and generally small inf guns at range 3 is not realistic. These guns had dual role of a field guns and a mortars at the same time.
Problem 2: In artillery configuration StuG is too vulnerable, which is also not acceptable since it is the same vehicle needing no time to change target. While mortar infantry would certainly need more time to set up mortars it's reverting at turn end.
Problem 3: StuG Being class Tank is incorrect. It's a support weapon, most of the time fired from a position or marched in support with infantry. Tactical role and doctrine is not of a tank's. Tank class distrupts upgrade chain of StuGs in particular.

Solution:
a, StuG (and similar vehicles) must be AT-class to provide support fire in defense of the infantry it supports. It does not matter if that particular StuG had AT-gun or howitzer, in a support role it would fire at armor anyway with HE or HEAT even.
b, support of attacking infantry is done by ranged fire, previously by switching to ART type. I have changed this to instantRevert to retain to AT type by the enemy turn so it can provide support AND defend itself in it's original config.

Issues not resolved yet:
Infantry guns (or battalion guns) are - at this scale - integrated part of infantry units (like mortars). As a matter of fact light AT guns also fall into this category! Separately they are both vulnerable if not covered. Omitting them is not an option, I think we can agree on that. Giving them extra range is not realistic and is not a solution anyway. I'm doing tests with units having weapons/switches as special attack or integrated guns... It's also an OoB question of the faction.

Admiral_Horthy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:23 am b, support of attacking infantry is done by ranged fire, previously by switching to ART type. I have changed this to instantRevert to retain to AT type by the enemy turn so it can provide support AND defend itself in it's original config.

So you've changed "artillery" to "weapon" in the switch column?

Yes, I did, and changed anti-tank: to instantRevert like the way it has in the mortar infantry. The weapon icon will be missing, I'm replacing it right now, but we have the tiny-icons bugs tho.
The ART type instance also needs the NoPurchase and NoEditor traits, to avoid malfunction for regular players.

That's a pretty clever use of instantRevert!

I use it quite often in the Vietnam mod, where the scale of units are different. I basically doubled all ranges, and the weapon switch is used to provide "special abilities" like long range fire, suppressive fire, the use of sniper rifles and heavy weapons.

Yes, agree, it's a good solution for a two-hex-ranged StuG inside the anit-tank class.
Noted for a test run...

Admiral_Horthy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:37 pm I use it quite often in the Vietnam mod, where the scale of units are different. I basically doubled all ranges, and the weapon switch is used to provide "special abilities" like long range fire, suppressive fire, the use of sniper rifles and heavy weapons.

Vietnam mod!? Where (or is) this available?

I most often only go with the Arty with the longest range otherwise it seems I am always a hex to short or more. The Germans have better long range decent arty. The English arty is a joke ?? The range is what 4 ?? I think adding a commander to arty helps gives them more of whatever the commander abilities have and its worth it cause in theory every time the commander is used with an arty unit the unit is at full strength and its used a lot close to every turn ...