Slitherine

Is there any ancient army which includeds these three BG's?

The closest I can think of is Alexandrian Macedonians with Thracian MF with HW's.

In an 800 point game, how should an army with pikes and elephants be used? I hear of two methods; intersperce the elephants in with the pikes, and placing elephants on the flanks.

I'd like some decent MF to occupy terrain and be a nuisance to Roman Legionaires, who were a pain in the ass in my last and only game. Superior, armoured, impact foot crack troops is what they are.

I don't own Immortal Fire, but my opponent does so I'll have to quickly create an army list on Friday.

I'm thinking of:
2x12 Pikes
2x2 Elephants
1x6 Thracian MF HW
1x4 LH
1x6 Cv

Can I use Cretan archers? I've always been fond of them.

Later Seleucid has these 3 types between 166 BC and 124 BC.

And Later Seleucid is in the Rise of Rome book, not Immortal Fire. Of course you own RoR . . . ?




Marc

actually... i think you could field a selecuid early successor list with those bases.

and yes, you can run with cretans. you can also have 6-8 bases of MF thureophoroi upgraded to armoured offensive spearmen... that'll give the legions a run for their money.

I believe that one of the Pyrrhic lists will give you all three options (the greek campaign has impact foot, iirc).

Take care with the pikes as they are fragile against Superior Armoured Legionaires. The Thracians if Heavy Weapon can pose problems for the Armoured Romans. The thureophoroi are also a real pain. They plus Impact Foot in nasty stuff can give the Romans a real headache - I know. Good luck and watch the flanks of the phalanx.

Pyrrhic plus Early Successor armies.

I've never been able to work out how such troops were combined though. Pike plus elephant is easy, it's the Galatians plus pike that gets me every time. That said, Pyrrhus was said to have reckoned his defeat of Antigonos Gonatas' Galatians as the finest action he and his army had undertaken, but that was more a compliment to the prowess of the Galatians as no mention is made of a combined Galatian/phalanx battle line.

timmy1 wrote:Take care with the pikes as they are fragile against Superior Armoured Legionaires. The Thracians if Heavy Weapon can pose problems for the Armoured Romans. The thureophoroi are also a real pain. They plus Impact Foot in nasty stuff can give the Romans a real headache - I know. Good luck and watch the flanks of the phalanx.

I second this--and I've been playing LRR against Ptolemaics
In my last battle the enemy's Thracians held up one of my superior legions for several turns. I would echo something that Nik and others have said on other threads on pike--24 is the minimum. If you can buy more the enemy will be facing a formidable steamroller. Fragile in a sense against superior armored legionaires, but still pretty tough.

Cheers,

Dale

"The Thracians if Heavy Weapon can pose problems for the Armoured Romans."

Not if the Romans are skilled swordsmen they won't.

footslogger wrote:"The Thracians if Heavy Weapon can pose problems for the Armoured Romans."

Not if the Romans are skilled swordsmen they won't.

Definitely true that superior legionaries are better against heavy weapon then average legionaries but I'd take heavy weapon in melee over swordsmen to fight the skilled sword--the heavy weapon still negates the armor bonus the legionaries get, dropping the POA difference to +1 for the Romans. In my battle against the thracians a Ptolemaic commander joined that BG's front rank, making them in effect, superior for close combat rolls. My edge in POA wasn't enough given so-so luck on my part. Still, at the end of the game, that commander had been killed and things were now looking bad for the Thracians.

Cheers,

Dale

Those thracians are going to get chewed up. Less quickly in rough going than in the open, but they will still get chewed up.

Footslogger, as the owner of a Principiate Roman army I hope you are right but I am NOT sending Superior Skilled swordsmen into rough to find out.

timmy1 wrote:Footslogger, as the owner of a Principiate Roman army I hope you are right but I am NOT sending Superior Skilled swordsmen into rough to find out.

As the owner of a Late Republican army I share your resolve about not sending superior skilled sword into rough against Thracians. Sending in Illyrian MF instead I'd try...

Dale

But Dale, my Thracians and Thureophoroi would be happy to welcome them.

I have tried sending superior numbers of Auxilia, led by a TC, into Rough against Thracians and got precisely nowhere.

Is putting pikes 5 deep when facing very good quality BG's a good idea? I can see the advantaged but it leads to a narrow frontage and easy overlaps.

Is there anything that can take on crack legionaries in the same era?

Also, it's been suggested to put Elephants on the flanks, but does this not lead to overlaps and too many death rolls? I was thinking of something like this:

MF-PK-EL-PK-EL-PK-MF

The splitting the group if I have two targets to attack. The MF would keep the enemy off the flanks of the pikes while the main line of EL and PK get stuck in. Probably too simplistic.

Mahatma wrote: Is there anything that can take on crack legionaries in the same era?

Super Cataphracts certainly can (although at 36-40AP a file taking on 28 that is pricey), Super armoured lancer cav fight them at evens.

Realistically no foot in any period can really take on Super, armoured, SSw, impact foot. So in that sense high quality roman legions are the premier foot in teh game.

ethan wrote:

Mahatma wrote: Is there anything that can take on crack legionaries in the same era?

Super Cataphracts certainly can (although at 36-40AP a file taking on 28 that is pricey), Super armoured lancer cav fight them at evens.

Realistically no foot in any period can really take on Super, armoured, SSw, impact foot. So in that sense high quality roman legions are the premier foot in teh game.

LF bow do the trick nicely. meanwhile you're crushing his weak roman flanks with CV superior armoured lancers...

unfortunately that sometimes means hiding your pikes on top of a hill.

So I put a rough 600pt army together.

1x FC
2x TC
8x Argyraspides. HF, Sup, Pro, Dr, Pikes
8x Phalanx. HF, Ave, Pro, Dr, Pikes
8x Phalanx. HF, Ave, Pro, Dr, Pikes
6x Tracians. MF, Ave, Unpro, Undr, HW.
4x Cataphracts. Superior
4x Cataphracts. Superior
6x Slingers. Poor, undrilled.
6x Slingers. Poor, undrilled.
2x Elephants.
4x Horse Archers. Ave, unpro, undr.

Have no idea about tactics. Probably stall one flank with MF in terrain and LH. Slingers infront of pike wall. Elephants and Cataphracts used as a torpedo to break other flank.

Warfare has never been so simple.

Just a thought, keep the elephants to the outside of the pike blocks, that way if any sneaky cav manages to try and flank you they lose dice for being disordered. This weekend routed Roman Gaul 6X cav superior armoured in 2 games, and the elephants were left without a scratch. I am guessing pike armies dont want to stand back but want to roll forward. My own dilema is to make my pike army archers MF for more shooting dice or LF so they can run away if charged.